tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post1611474987076513059..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: The Two Myths of Desire.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-12413547090071454122009-12-08T16:03:37.825-05:002009-12-08T16:03:37.825-05:00Actually, it's probably because I personally d...Actually, it's probably because I personally don't meet a physical attractiveness threshold independent of pick-up, coupled with the total female agency I credited above. For the most part, I can totally see WHY a man with my appearance, finances, etc. is going to face challenges others don't, and in fact I am mainly giving/getting sex-for-sex's-sake with "invisible women." Pick-up seems to work stunningly well for men with at least a little bit of fashion, money, heat, or masculine social dominance, so my (lack of) performance is indicative of precisely nothing.<br /><br />Again, I think your socio-economic position and geographic location, as well as your relative youth, skew things a bit, because Jews are free to be non-wealthy and still date where you are, whereas here things are pretty grim for men who aren't wealthy, because, after all, "Jews are good with money."Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-83826292692979939532009-12-08T09:23:16.095-05:002009-12-08T09:23:16.095-05:00It occurs to me that feminists are guilty of these...It occurs to me that feminists are guilty of these, when they (we?) criticize women who change their appearance to attract a man/men.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-77856709314268088392009-12-07T14:21:56.427-05:002009-12-07T14:21:56.427-05:00"The myth that men are always hornier than th..."The myth that men are always hornier than their female partners is incredibly destructive for both men and women. Please stop propagating it. Men and women are individual people with individual variations."<br /><br />Um yeah, I brought it up AS a myth. Sorry, I thought that would be clear from what thread we were in; I should have expounded as you did.<br /><br />flightlessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-10347309403897481432009-12-07T10:00:41.638-05:002009-12-07T10:00:41.638-05:00I can easily believe the invisible woman thing. I...I can easily believe the invisible woman thing. I am a slightly more attractive than average guy; I make eye contact and smile at less-than-average women, and they light up. (I like doing this, it makes everyone happy). The degree to which they light up makes it clear that this small acknowledgement does not happen all the time. <br /><br />Still, I have to be the one to initiate it. I don't believe an invisible woman is normally as invisible as an invisible man in our society; I've been an invisible man, in a college with 5 times as many women as men. I've been told I was rather attractive then too, but I couldn't tell, because back then I didn't initiate contact at all.<br /><br />Self-Made Man by Norah Vincent was a good exploration from one of the few people who has ever explored this from both sides.<br /><br />Now, I treat attractive young women as invisible; being at the young end of middle-aged, I don't want to seem like a creepy old man. The younger or the more attractive, the more invisible to me. I wonder how common that is?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-67719261157831809932009-12-06T08:25:03.892-05:002009-12-06T08:25:03.892-05:00flightless -- No such thing as a man with a lower ...flightless -- No such thing as a man with a lower sex drive than his female partner?<br /><br />First data point: I seem to need sex way more often than my boyfriend (I would be okay with it if we had sex once a day, but no less often than that; he turns me down more often than not), and (second data point) I was just having a conversation with a male friend who ended a relationship with a female partner partly because she wanted to have sex all the time and he seemed to find it annoying. I also, third data point, have another male friend who said he felt bad that he never wanted to have sex with his then-girlfriend when she initiated it (so he didn't).<br /><br />The myth that men are always hornier than their female partners is incredibly destructive for both men and women. Please stop propagating it. Men and women are individual people with individual variations.R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-2088713287145480552009-12-04T11:55:16.060-05:002009-12-04T11:55:16.060-05:00I'd like to mention that I don't play the ...I'd like to mention that I don't play the PUA game, though...perlhaqrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920117742664645165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39188746952065998292009-12-04T11:54:10.173-05:002009-12-04T11:54:10.173-05:00Holly: It's really deeply weird to watch you h...Holly: It's really deeply weird to watch you having the same argument with Eurosabra that I have with my lover, when we debate male vs: female perspectives on courting. :)<br /><br />But I guess that means that both of us have noticed the same things, from our respective sides.perlhaqrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01920117742664645165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-17846218440518783622009-12-04T08:53:57.479-05:002009-12-04T08:53:57.479-05:00Holly - Ouch, I understand it, but still ouch.Holly - Ouch, I understand it, but still ouch.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15582802335048345717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-11938947929174118532009-12-03T22:37:01.832-05:002009-12-03T22:37:01.832-05:00Dan - Hey buddy, with an attitude like that most o...Dan - Hey buddy, with an attitude like that most of us Americans don't want you in our rooms anyway. :pCliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7898900216152899932009-12-03T22:34:42.191-05:002009-12-03T22:34:42.191-05:00Eurosabra - I can think of what would happen if a ...Eurosabra - <i>I can think of what would happen if a male EMT, unattractive but not pushy, tried using your ER as a "woman farm." His job would be in danger in about 5 minutes.</i><br />Ha ha, you think they don't? Male EMTs be all about that fine ER-nurse booty.<br /><br />Of course when I say "farm," that's a goofy euphemism for "place where we share a break room and thus have opportunity to strike up conversation," it's not like I'm out in the hall grabbing asses.<br /><br /><i>Whereas a woman just has to stand there, have a pulse, and say "Yes" to a decent offer. </i><br />Ha ha NO. Talk about "invisibility"--I feel like you think "woman" means "hot blonde hardbody", when in fact it encompasses Aunt Bertha and everyone in between. Bertha's not going to get far just standing there with a pulse. And neither are most women, and frankly, neither are most hot blonde hardbodies. I've met boys in lots of places, and not a <i>once</i> could the situation be described as "just standing there."<br /><br />I really don't know where you <i>go</i> that women are just standing there with take-a-ticket machines and men submitting applications. This is totally outside my experience.<br /><br /><i>Your "Aunt Bertha/Brad Pitt" dichotomy skews the reality that the problem for the AVERAGE woman is TOO MUCH sexual interest from TOO MANY incompatible men, while the problem for the AVERAGE man is eliciting attraction from the AVERAGE woman.</i><br />No. The problem for both sexes is that we all want an above-average (however we define that, it's hardly objective) partner. Again I have to ask where you see women (<i>real</i> women, not two or three highly visible hotties) turning away men left and right. I sure don't have that kind of problem...<br /><br /><i>fl is totally correct that PUA holds that on reaching socio-economic parity with men, women will cause a nose-dive in the average man's sexual life. This is because that is what happens, as the not-so-sotto-voce requests for someone "ambitious" "successful" in personal ads attest.</i><br />But... I want to fuck. So some man or other's going to get lucky. And since there's a lot of women out there who also want to fuck, and most of us aren't that into sharing, a lot of men are going to get lucky. And this is in fact what happens in the world. Money hardly enters into it.<br /><br />Why would being rich make me less horny, or more willing to sleep with a guy who has twenty other girlfriends? If anything, more powerful women would expect more exclusivity, thus increasing the net pussy supply.<br /><br />(Also, not all "ambitious" personal ads are looking for sugar daddies; some are really just trying to say "doesn't live with Mom.")<br /><br />Finally, PUA has shit-all to do with this because IT DOESN'T WORK. If that shit worked, brother, you'd get laid. You clearly do not get laid despite being an ardent student of the discipline for several years... learn to recognize a pattern, huh?Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-32492097943225879392009-12-03T16:49:49.183-05:002009-12-03T16:49:49.183-05:00Eurosabra - Most Americans have a warped perspecti...Eurosabra - Most Americans have a warped perspective on American society, as a general rule we aren't sane. I know there is an ever decreasing percent of the population I can stand to be in the same room.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15582802335048345717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-16521272656081099172009-12-03T13:28:48.311-05:002009-12-03T13:28:48.311-05:00I can think of what would happen if a male EMT, un...I can think of what would happen if a male EMT, unattractive but not pushy, tried using your ER as a "woman farm." His job would be in danger in about 5 minutes. Whereas a woman just has to stand there, have a pulse, and say "Yes" to a decent offer. Your "Aunt Bertha/Brad Pitt" dichotomy skews the reality that the problem for the AVERAGE woman is TOO MUCH sexual interest from TOO MANY incompatible men, while the problem for the AVERAGE man is eliciting attraction from the AVERAGE woman.<br /><br />PUA is blamed for inauthenticity when it's a product of social circles and social rituals (the LA club scene) where people are at their most superficial. And some men really DO need a road map to seduction, and as someone brainy suffering from depression who has dated a lot of brainy depressed women (and one or two women with Asperger's) I have a lot of experience with "naïve rapport", attraction, and sex being something almost totally learned and enacted through social ritual ANYWAY. I get that you don't get the sort of total social invisibility that awkward men experience, or that PUA requires enough extroversion to overcome that "raw", without techniques and routines.<br /><br />fl is totally correct that PUA holds that on reaching socio-economic parity with men, women will cause a nose-dive in the average man's sexual life. This is because that is what happens, as the not-so-sotto-voce requests for someone "ambitious" "successful" in personal ads attest. (It may be that as an Israeli-born Jew I have a warped perspective on American society. Nah.)Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-86121980902813850852009-12-02T14:50:19.927-05:002009-12-02T14:50:19.927-05:00I admit to have a problem overcoming both myths, a...I admit to have a problem overcoming both myths, although I'd never separated them out like that. And that's been part of the problem: From an individual perspective, "she doesn't want me" is indistinguishable from "she doesn't want sex" -- and "she doesn't want sex" is much easier than accepting "she wants sex with someone else" or trying to understand why, if she wants sex with me, she's so passive. ("So" is a deliberately ambiguous term.)<br /><br />I wrote a much longer response initially, but realized Holly had covered pretty much anything I wanted to say. It boils down to treating people as individuals rather than as members of whatever group you're trying to educate/protect/fuck/analyze.Brunohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11545875839887483257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-68191806231590452732009-12-02T10:13:58.242-05:002009-12-02T10:13:58.242-05:00And related to what I overshared about elsewhere -...And related to what I overshared about elsewhere - there is no such thing as a man who has a lower sex drive than his female partner (unless there's something medically wrong with him).<br /><br />flightlessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-63566761269804576032009-12-02T06:54:30.673-05:002009-12-02T06:54:30.673-05:00William : Think part of it is our justice system, ...William : Think part of it is our justice system, a woman even whispers a thought about sexual misconduct we're in jail and publicly battered about for being an ass. Not a situation I want to find myself.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15582802335048345717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30826927929025967262009-12-02T03:50:48.023-05:002009-12-02T03:50:48.023-05:00If women just want to make babies, then considerin...If women just want to make babies, then considering how much men try to spread their seed around, men must *really* just want to make babies. [/snark]Not Menoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-50266803307728833662009-12-02T03:21:15.038-05:002009-12-02T03:21:15.038-05:00Don't forget that obligate lesbians, assault v...Don't forget that obligate lesbians, assault victims, and "radfems" are held up (mostly by anti-feminists) as exemplars of feminism and, by extension, what all women would be like if women ever reached social, financial, and political parity with men. Rule #1.<br /><br />And yeah, the rules are amazingly baseless but wow do a lot of people (ok, men) fall for them.<br /><br />Love your Cosmo and PUA examples too.<br /><br />figleaffigleafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01440982008394316977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-77718930470659042292009-12-02T00:05:47.581-05:002009-12-02T00:05:47.581-05:00I guess it does mean she understood it.
Funny, I...I guess it does mean she understood it. <br /><br />Funny, I went to an eastern school, and the radical feminism women aren't attracted to men combined with good girls don't have sex unless they're drunk to yield a really toxic brew. <br /><br />Dan--it took me years to get the confidence and security to realize that I am attractive, that people WILL desire me, and not everyone will desire me. So, you move on. YEARS. But you get there eventuallyWilliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15428082495674007773noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-45028334670421127012009-12-01T22:53:04.810-05:002009-12-01T22:53:04.810-05:00Wait, does all that mean that Holly understood wha...Wait, does all that mean that Holly understood what Eurosabra said?Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15824445546892392815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-78880920044827441482009-12-01T17:32:15.455-05:002009-12-01T17:32:15.455-05:00One point I'd like to add.
There are guys (my...One point I'd like to add.<br /><br />There are guys (myself included) who find it difficult to believe that someone is sexually attracted to us. And due to social training/conditioning, can't initiate sex the first time or two.<br /><br />And hope you feel better, had 2 sinus infections, flu, and pneumonia in the last six weeks myself. It sucks.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15582802335048345717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-40777678977464990872009-12-01T16:10:11.844-05:002009-12-01T16:10:11.844-05:00Sure hope you feel all better soon. Nothing sucks...Sure hope you feel all better soon. Nothing sucks like the crud. And I know you can quit any time you want; you just don't want to!Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11118782909100245547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-41406269750682132292009-12-01T15:30:30.592-05:002009-12-01T15:30:30.592-05:00Eurosabra - Wow, that didn't take you long.
I...Eurosabra - Wow, that didn't take you long.<br /><br />It's not about being someone women "'naturally' desire on the savannah"--it's about <i>becoming</i> someone a modern-day woman might desire, and I'd say that just about any man has that potential. Sure, some guys are born bug-ugly, but that doesn't mean they're hopeless. I know plenty of bug-ugly guys with hot girlfriends.<br /><br />(Or even... UNTHINKABLE... bug-ugly guys with bug-ugly girlfriends and they're happy together. One of the failings of PUA--besides being insane--is that it treats women's experiences as totally different from men's. 80-90% of women don't come naturally savannah-beautiful either. You think makeup just grows on our faces?)<br /><br />So yeah, men have to work to be attractive, I agree that much, but I think PUA is a terrible method of becoming attractive. Everything I read about PUA is based in deception, pseudoscience, manipulation, and sexism. "I wasn't born Brad Pitt" is a real problem; PUA is a bullshit solution.<br /><br /><br />(Oh, and would you quit this "female sexual agency" shit? I don't get Brad Pitt delivered to my door with a bow on. And Aunt Bertha with her skin condition and all the cats out in Pasco--still technically a "woman" under today's terminology!--<i>definitely</i> doesn't get that.<br /><br />Women don't get laid with <i>desirable</i> partners much more easily than men. Maybe I have a better chance of fucking Uncle Joe-Bob than you do of fucking Aunt Bertha, but I think my chance of fucking Brad Pitt is quite comparable to your chance of fucking Megan Fox.)Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-81941156433091129362009-12-01T14:49:05.220-05:002009-12-01T14:49:05.220-05:00I think you need to look at Hugo Schwyzer's po...I think you need to look at Hugo Schwyzer's post "Of Never Feeling Hot" for a more subtle look. Most men who come to PUA are familiar with the bar/club scene, the SCA Ren-Faire scene, the cosplay scene, all sorts of social contexts in which they PERSONALLY are not chosen for inborn factors beyond their control which they compound by socially awkward behavior. Most everyone knows our society is awash in female desire and female sexual agency, so the one-sentence summary of PUA would be "Evol Sluts Choose Only Alphas Always." Again, it's a straw PUA to chalk that up to a lack of female desire, the problem from the PUA+MRA perspective is that female desire is now totally free of outmoded social-shaming and free to be satisfied by only the 10%-20% of men whom women "naturally" desire on the savannah.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7347474708241900662009-12-01T14:34:59.881-05:002009-12-01T14:34:59.881-05:00Hershele - Indeedy (and worthy of an entire post)....Hershele - Indeedy (and worthy of an entire post). Sex should never be the difference between "no" and "yes," but between "no" and "mmm ahhh OH GOD PLEASE YES."Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-40169749659168397612009-12-01T14:31:37.107-05:002009-12-01T14:31:37.107-05:00It's also used as a response when feminists et...It's also used as a response when feminists et al point out that the best way to reduce the incidence of rape is for men to forbear sexual activity absent enthusiastic consent. Since only a woman sexually desiring a man, as well as vice versa, could result in enthusiastic consent, and if that never happens, enth. con. is too high a bar.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.com