tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post3172923166304135060..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Handjob World, or why it matters that women like sex.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-70429298513304681542011-08-27T16:51:06.157-04:002011-08-27T16:51:06.157-04:00Something I saw somewhere inspired me to come back...Something I saw somewhere inspired me to come back to this post.<br /><br />Protip: <b>Never Google the phrase "handjob world" if you're at all shockable.</b>Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-72111175177609569702010-08-04T21:21:10.500-04:002010-08-04T21:21:10.500-04:00If women did not feel sexual pleasure, we could st...If women did not feel sexual pleasure, we could still have an equal society. Boys would have to be taught from an early age that women do not enjoy having sexual things done to them and that a decent person would never do such things to a woman. Boys would have to learn to control their desire to have sex just as we all learn to control our desire to hit people. It would be harder for women to achieve full equality in such a society, but probably not impossible.Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-16691134619221103502010-08-01T17:17:29.510-04:002010-08-01T17:17:29.510-04:00...and I see there's a new thread about this e......and I see there's a new thread about this exact thing, so off we go.chinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-75696022677128894882010-08-01T17:08:46.874-04:002010-08-01T17:08:46.874-04:00Maybe burned by landing on a PUA site and finding ...Maybe burned by landing on a PUA site and finding out what they really think of the women they're working their charms on, much less women in general? <br /><br />Not to get too far off topic here, but I am unbelievably sympathetic to the situation that draws some men into this. My husband would have been a prime target: geeky, socially anxious, has never picked up a woman in his life (yet is married to me! conundrum!). Most human beings crave sex, love and intimacy. I get it. If there was just a way to pull out the casual to horrific misogyny that underlies it all, I would think it was a useful social training technique. <br /><br />In fact, what I remember of Mystery's show did that (shielding the masses from the ugly underbelly?). Showed the guys how to groom themselves, how to walk into a room, how to have something to say, how to "open a set" by being cool and non-threatening, how to figure out when she likes you. Even the "neg" stuff wouldn't be so offensive if instead of being taught as a way to undermine confidence and smoke out insecurities (i.e. teach that bitch she's not so special), it was "differentiate yourself by treating her like just another person, rather than fawning all over her, especially if she's likely to get that the minute she walk she walks out the door every day." We watched that whole show and I got teary over these very sweet guys getting the confidence to get out of their own way and actually talk to a woman long enough for her to find out she likes him. <br /><br />But as long as the foundational messages are: women are the same and want exactly the same things, a woman's value is directly correlated to her "number," women who aren't "reasonably attractive young women" might as well not exist or only exist to be interfering bitches, and of course the granddaddy of them all: women owe sex to men and they withhold it for all kinds of evil and bullshit reasons because they suck, well, all of that mess has been well-discussed around here. So if I say something mean about PUA, that's the shit I'm talking about.chinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-37167219057927162332010-08-01T10:58:35.663-04:002010-08-01T10:58:35.663-04:00Scarcity as in "almost no one is attracted to...Scarcity as in "almost no one is attracted to my natural traits", something which is probably experienced by lots of women as well. So you'd better acquire some personality to boost that.<br /><br />I don't know about "burned" except to the extent that some PUAs use negative comments, prude-shaming and peer pressure as tactics. Ross Jeffries once remarked that it's not a karmically good thing to use others' vulnerabilities to get your rocks off.<br /><br />Some men don't think of their own "No"s as agency, because they're supposed to always be willing. Turning it down is also a failure--you'd get offers from someone decent if you weren't such a chump.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-49817110858966923442010-08-01T07:48:52.417-04:002010-08-01T07:48:52.417-04:00Ok, this is a really sad comment but this post rem...Ok, this is a really sad comment but this post reminds me of a bit in the most recent series of Desperate Housewives, where Tom thinks Lynette first put out because he took her to an expensive restaurant, whereas it was actually because he turned up at her house with a lightbulb to replace the one that got bust in her apartment block, because he was worried for her safety in the dark (it was less patronising than I make it sound - promise).<br /><br />The way to get a woman into bed is frequently to be genuinely interested in her - radical or what! I thought that was totally self-evident! Mind you, for me, turning my brain to mush with kinky thoughts also does the trick.<br /><br />PS Your blog is fucking awesome, thanks for writing it. I look forward to being able to do some of the freaky stuff you do - I'm so bloody envious!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21248053867566561112010-08-01T07:40:50.061-04:002010-08-01T07:40:50.061-04:00aebhel - that's something like what I was plan...aebhel - that's something like what I was planning to say before Holly said she'd amply addressed the issue.Mousie00noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-19390182903737921052010-08-01T05:59:49.134-04:002010-08-01T05:59:49.134-04:00not another "Wow Holly ur so awesome!" p...not another "Wow Holly ur so awesome!" post...<br /><br />You made me hungry. Yeah for food too!<br />Dinner?John Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04875185117306503147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-77737043369520123082010-08-01T03:57:01.963-04:002010-08-01T03:57:01.963-04:00I hate being a lurker who only ever comments with ...I hate being a lurker who only ever comments with "I love you!" type comments, but I never have enough time to really elaborate on my thoughts. I truly am grateful for posts like this that you make, however, because I feel like someone out there is saying the things I think but don't have time to say. You rock.Niohttp://niofaps.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-56648613365616875262010-08-01T03:15:47.633-04:002010-08-01T03:15:47.633-04:00...oh, and how hearing 'I'd pay to fuck yo......oh, and how hearing 'I'd pay to fuck you' isn't actually really a form of power. In fact, depending on the circumstances, it can be really fucking scary.aebhelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-54732691433354481062010-08-01T03:12:35.802-04:002010-08-01T03:12:35.802-04:00Mousieoo, look at it like this:
A very, very smal...Mousieoo, look at it like this:<br /><br />A very, very small subset of extraordinarily attractive, outgoing women with the right sort of personality could sell sex for $1500 a pop and actually make money at it. A similar subset of men could probably do the same thing. Yeah, probably there are more women than men making scads of money as high-end prostitutes, but either one represents a tiny portion of their respective population.<br /><br />So saying 'women can get laid whenever they want' is disingenuous, self-pitying bullshit. It's the same for us as it is for guys: a crapshoot of personal attractiveness and social skills and luck. The only difference is how some men seem to think they have the <i>right</i> to sex with beautiful, intelligent, skilled, and charming women without actually contributing anything to the situation. This is why that whole argument tends to get kind of aggravating for a lot of women.aebhelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-65951656640856909252010-08-01T00:57:01.416-04:002010-08-01T00:57:01.416-04:00My lived experience is that I'm not getting la...My lived experience is that I'm not getting laid nearly as much as I want to (or, ahem, at all). I am also female. And yet I don't go around complaining that guys and girls ought to have sex with me because I buy them dinners or whatever.<br /><br />I could see a theoretical PUA that isn't horribly misogynistic: a sort of "identify the kinds of people you want to sleep with, identify what traits they tend to be attracted to, work on those traits" deal. Something that acknowledges that some people like bad pick-up lines and giant fuzzy hats, and other people like Monty Python references and eyeliner, and that you can generally work out which group is which. But, clearly, that's not actual PUA.ozymandiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21907027279494877382010-07-31T22:18:58.674-04:002010-07-31T22:18:58.674-04:00Eurosabra - those women will naturally choose onl...Eurosabra - <i> those women will naturally choose only to have sex with a very limited subset of men,</i><br />All women will only have sex with a very limited subset of men, on account of the tremendous emotional and time challenges involved with having sex with ALL of the men. But it's not all the same men--please witness the existence of the Average Guy With A Girlfriend.<br /><br /><i>tons of men still have a tremendous scarcity mentality that is a reflection of their lived experience</i><br />The problem from my lived experience is, I don't have a big pile of pussy in the back of my closet to give away. My pussy supply is stuck to my body and wired directly into my nervous system. Therefore, sex doesn't seem much like a commodity to me--it seems like an experience. When you talk about a scarcity, I hear you talking about a scarcity of <i>me</i>, and I hope you realize why that would give me heebiee jeebiees up and down the spine.<br /><br /><i>Chi's "trick" terminology when in fact it's an elaborate form of screening.</i><br />Sort of it is. It's screening for the women with the absolute lowest self-esteem that will be easiest to treat like shit. (Or the ones that haven't been burned by PUAs yet, because an unburned bridge is a missed opportunity!) Give yourself a pat on the fucking back.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-76272884423389504362010-07-31T22:03:53.940-04:002010-07-31T22:03:53.940-04:00Um, yes, well, but the PUA community argues that t...Um, yes, well, but the PUA community argues that that isn't enough, because those women will naturally choose only to have sex with a very limited subset of men, and most of the sociological data bears this out, in the aggregate. So, really, moving everything out of the Commodity Model isn't as decisive as you think, because tons of men still have a tremendous scarcity mentality that is a reflection of their lived experience. This is outlined on so many PUA blogs and I've discussed it here at length in the past, and I tend to object to Chi's "trick" terminology when in fact it's an elaborate form of screening.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-22752167896305288802010-07-31T15:34:05.960-04:002010-07-31T15:34:05.960-04:00Holly said That sounds like "women are powerf...Holly said <i>That sounds like "women are powerful because they can deny men sex" thinking, and I feel like I've amply addressed why I don't agree with that.</i><br /><br />I don't want to waste time trying to address something you've already amply addressed. I found the <a href="http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2010/02/satoshi-kanazawa-is-douchebag-and.html" rel="nofollow">Satoshi Kanazawa is a douchebag</a> post, is that the one you had in mind?Mousie00noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-4073759690622418352010-07-31T15:00:45.270-04:002010-07-31T15:00:45.270-04:00I dunno, I just saw it as a clarification of how t...I dunno, I just saw it as a clarification of how the thinking goes rather than an assertion of this is how it should be or truly is; that some men see women as "possessing" sex and that it does cause resentment is kinda the source of 90% of your trolls.<br /><br />Meanwhile the women are going "...but *I* sure as hell couldn't sell my body for that price tag and I can't get laid on demand and you're not really talking about me, are you, am I even real to you?"LabRathttp://www.atomicnerds.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-33278860189564667302010-07-31T14:53:21.678-04:002010-07-31T14:53:21.678-04:00Women can do all the same things as men, and have ...<i>Women can do all the same things as men, and have everything to bargain with that men do, plus if they want they can always sell their bodies for $1500 for full service and an overnight.</i><br />I've seen a suggested etymology of the word "pussy" that traces it back to "purse." I'm not sure that requires that women can just deny men sex. But now <b>I</b> have to go, so I haven't time to elaborate<br /><br /><i>You can also put whatever toppings you'd like on your pizza without a whole lot of judgement or, as they put it, "No one thinks someone who likes ketchup on their pizza is going to burn eternally in hell."</i><br />Hm. I don't particularly like to associate with people who have pineapple, but as long as they don't scare the horses in the street and all that.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7208055304057360742010-07-31T14:23:52.196-04:002010-07-31T14:23:52.196-04:00Mousie00 - That's not how the thinking goes. W...Mousie00 - <i>That's not how the thinking goes. Women can do all the same things as men, and have everything to bargain with that men do, plus if they want they can always sell their bodies for $1500 for full service and an overnight. Men asking for money for sex is comedy. Women are seen as being in a much more powerful position, and it's resented. </i><br />That sounds like "women are powerful because they can deny men sex" thinking, and I feel like I've amply addressed why I don't agree with that.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-84070724026917256712010-07-31T14:21:03.620-04:002010-07-31T14:21:03.620-04:00Inception Kink Meme, peoples. One-stop shop for In...Inception Kink Meme, peoples. One-stop shop for Inception-related porn, and also filk of I Jizzed In My Pants. <br /><br />I'm too lazy to link to the ones I wrote, but I wrote the one where everyone chokes the fuck out of Arthur, and also the one where Arthur ties Eames's arms together with a silk tie.<br /><br />Now get back on topic, everyone.ozymandiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-35169555377939343362010-07-31T14:09:48.227-04:002010-07-31T14:09:48.227-04:00I would definitely read your Inception porn.
Also...I would definitely read your Inception porn.<br /><br />Also, I really like Scarleteen's metaphor for sex. Instead of baseball metaphors which are all about competition and fit pretty well with the commodity model, they propose a pizza metaphor that's more like the performance model. You can read it <a href="http://www.scarleteen.com/article/sexuality/to_slide_or_to_slice_finding_a_positive_sexual_metaphor" rel="nofollow">here</a>, but the short version is that most people like pizza. Some don't, and that's perfectly ok. Some people like to share a pizza with a partner, some prefer to eat it alone, and some like to have pizza parties and invite tons of people over. You can also put whatever toppings you'd like on your pizza without a whole lot of judgement or, as they put it, "No one thinks someone who likes ketchup on their pizza is going to burn eternally in hell."Artsynomadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26925060824833931062010-07-31T09:48:35.846-04:002010-07-31T09:48:35.846-04:00I shouldn't have posted that comment just befo...I shouldn't have posted that comment just before I need to leave IRL. It needs way more discussion, including why $1500/night is not generally an option and why it wouldn't be a good option if it was.Mousie00noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-45159668585862195642010-07-31T09:43:16.833-04:002010-07-31T09:43:16.833-04:00hell yeah, holly! great post.hell yeah, holly! great post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-34113070002234031972010-07-31T09:34:02.063-04:002010-07-31T09:34:02.063-04:00Getting over the impression that women don't r...Getting over the impression that women don't really like sex is the reason I started reading this blog. Now, of course, it's to protect Holly from Jack. ;)<br /><br /><i>As long as sex is a thing, a transaction, something women give or sell to men, women are put in a really weird social place. (So are men, but it's a more powerful one since they have more than one thing to bargain with and it's not their own bodies.)</i><br /><br />That's not how the thinking goes. Women can do all the same things as men, and have everything to bargain with that men do, plus if they want they can always sell their bodies for $1500 for full service and an overnight. Men asking for money for sex is comedy. Women are seen as being in a much more powerful position, and it's resented. That resentment shows up all kinds of places, including the desire to think men are better at SOMETHING.Mousie00noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-6712682186215272102010-07-31T06:31:09.905-04:002010-07-31T06:31:09.905-04:00Ozymandias:
Hey, I'll read it! (... please?)...Ozymandias:<br /><br />Hey, I'll read it! (... please?)DragoJustinehttp://dragojustine.livejournal.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-91742257974409549972010-07-31T03:41:18.177-04:002010-07-31T03:41:18.177-04:00Arthur/everyone in the entire universe. Not all in...Arthur/everyone in the entire universe. Not all in the same story, though.ozymandiasnoreply@blogger.com