tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post3360989768689131813..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Real consent.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger110125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-33289457853311330312013-03-24T06:09:12.775-04:002013-03-24T06:09:12.775-04:00Yeah. I sometimes want Sex in situations in which ...Yeah. I sometimes want Sex in situations in which I don't want-I'am german, so thats somewhat hard to describe in english.<br />I like it if he fucks me for his sake, if I am not wet(the good pain-and after the first minute I'll start to flow over so it's a short good pain) and I will get horny because he fucks me dry in a situation in which I am not enthusiastic.<br />Well we have a safeword for that situation and in one time he started and I got an overload and he stopped instantly because he knows me and we talked about what to do in such a situation(because often I can't talk then)<br />So we talked about such situations, how to stop if I really just not want and how to react if I overload.<br />So I give consent even if I am not initially enthusiastic because I know I will be-and if not we stop and everything is allright.(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-8863952799746600682012-06-14T10:00:43.628-04:002012-06-14T10:00:43.628-04:00Oh jeeze.
As someone who is an actual sex worker, ...Oh jeeze.<br />As someone who is an actual sex worker, lemme just say that you are completely off the mark here.<br /><br />I write a little about Lubben here- http://stripforthis.blogspot.com/2012/01/some-brief-musings-on-childhood-sexual.html. Most sex workers who know about her acknowledge that she had a uniquely horrible experience in sex work, that she got into it for the wrong reasons, etc., but completely disagree with her conclusions and solutions to these issues<br /><br /><br />"But I find it difficult to imagine a sex worker wanting to have sex with every single "client". It's their job, how they make money"<br /><br />Um, isn't that the point of this article in the first place? <br /><br /><br />"maybe they were forced into that work in some way. Whether poor circumstances or being kidnapped by a pimp and doing it out of fear that your pimp will harm them in some way"<br /><br />So all wage-labor is slavery? Cool, I'm an anarchist too! But why single out sex work? Are a migrant laborer picking tomatoes in Florida, a couple selling veggies from their garden at the local farmers market, and a black slave in the 1800's all the same? I mean, they're all being "forced" to do agricultural work through economic circumstances OR kidnapping/fear. Should their social positioning and working conditions be conceptualized similar to one another?<br /><br /><br />"but I take offense at the 'consenting to sex work is real consent' thing. I have never been in sex work, and would never, ever want to, in fact I would find it completely horrible and unpleasant for myself,"<br /><br />Ok, stop appropriating others' anger. As someone who would NEVER EVER DO SEX WORK EVER CUZ ITS SO HORRIBLE you really don't have any place to be so righteously offended at this. Believe me, sex workers ARE critical of the industry,but probably not for the same reasons you are, and not within the same framework from which you're operating.StripForThishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14617735596008957844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-63189298281125825922012-06-12T09:31:03.004-04:002012-06-12T09:31:03.004-04:00I think that sex work can be coerced, and that'...I think that sex work <i>can</i> be coerced, and that's horrible, and sex work is not <i>always</i> coerced, and it's not okay to claim it is.<br /><br />It's like saying "sex in relationships is sometimes horribly coerced, therefore sex in relationships can't be consensual." The problem isn't the kind of sex. (And believe me, cultural norms get all up in relationship-sex as well.)<br /><br />But there are people, male and female, who do sex work entirely by their own decision, or at least as much a decision as people have in any other job, and to ignore the consent they give is disrespectful and (inasmuch as it fails to acknowledge forced sex work as a real and separate problem from "all sex work") dangerous.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-69927438069668636922012-06-09T21:28:56.179-04:002012-06-09T21:28:56.179-04:00New anon, here.
I haven't read all of the comm...New anon, here.<br />I haven't read all of the comments, so I'm sorry if this is a redundant point, but I take offense at the "consenting to sex work is real consent" thing. I have never been in sex work, and would never, ever want to, in fact I would find it completely horrible and unpleasant for myself, considering I have had lots of sex for other reasons than for my own pleasure, so I guess that has to be taken into account.<br />But I find it difficult to imagine a sex worker wanting to have sex with every single "client". It's their job, how they make money, and, yes, maybe they were forced into that work in some way. Whether poor circumstances or being kidnapped by a pimp and doing it out of fear that your pimp will harm them in some way (I think this applies to younger people moreso, and people under the age of 18. Ugh, leaves a vile taste in my mouth!) There's an anti-porn activist who is an ex porn star named Shelley Lubben, and she has made several youtube videos about how terrible porn is for female porn stars, and her own story about essentially being forced to do sex work/porn because of poor circumstances, being picked up off the street when very young, and that it's a widespread thing, if not an...allspread? thing. It's the cultural semi-norm (I say semi- because it's a bit extreme and isn't a norm for many (most?) people, but I think it is sort of a common theme in this sort of media. I am wording it in the most extreme way.) that women are sexual objects and don't need to consent and are submissives who you can do what you want to and they will like it. (I don't have much experience with pornos and these are the only ones I've heard about.) She said that female porn stars don't LIKE making porn; she (and many others she knows) had to be drunk and drugged up during filming to be able to do it. They have to do it to make money, or they FEEL they have to. Even if you're trapped by your own mind, it's still being trapped, and not consent. Cultural (semi-)norms can trap you, they can be unhealthy and wrong.<br />ANYWAY, I think that sex work (porn and prostitution) doesn't apply here because I think it's perpetuated by cultural semi-norms (I'm thinking of female sex workers, here) that encourage non-consensual sex, women don't need to consent, it's for the guy in question's pleasure.<br />I just think that it's a different animal, and I'm rather offended that you consider it a consensual thing.<br /><br />What are you thoughts on this, Cliff? I'm interested.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-10944993795296696542012-06-07T13:43:03.470-04:002012-06-07T13:43:03.470-04:00Interesting (and correct) article. I just wanted ...Interesting (and correct) article. I just wanted to say how interesting the capitalization was in "D/s." Is it common to capitalize "Dom" but not "sub" when writing about BDSM?alexandritehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08217820874236974510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-20239742873742326862012-05-28T20:01:33.068-04:002012-05-28T20:01:33.068-04:00Great article. There is definitely a case, as I se...Great article. There is definitely a case, as I see it, for real if unenthusiastic consent to be treated as a conversation starter rather than "cool, she said yes . . ."<br />If sex is only ever tolerated by your partner, there's something going on that you need to talk about. If you can.<br /><br />One thing - <i> And obviously consent that's withdrawn or never given at all isn't real consent.</i><br /><br />I can see what you're trying to say, but this might be put more clearly. If you withdraw consent, the consent WAS real. It just no longer applies. If someone acts on you in any way under your explicit and real consent, those acts cannot retrospectively be downgraded.<br />And "giving consent" isn't carte blanche. It surely must be given for each distinct act that's intended, so in reality consenting to something doesn't mean consenting to ANYthing or EVERYthing. And rescinding your consent for something, anything or everything applies just as surely to whatever it is you're discussing.Mr Monsternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-78354546023177071012012-05-24T11:24:48.088-04:002012-05-24T11:24:48.088-04:00To fix the system from the inside?
There are -- I...To fix the system from the inside?<br /><br />There are -- I think inevitably -- situations in which one party legitimately feels victimized but that it is impractical or unjust to cover under the law. The example I always give is Pat inviting Robin to have sex in such a way that it's clear the only responses that will be heard are "yes" and "ask again in a few minutes." Now, when on the third round the answer is "yes," Pat<br />a) cluelessly concludes Robin has changed zir mind, or<br />b) has a poor understanding of consent and assumes a "yes" however motivated counts, or<br />c) pretends to have a poor understanding of consent and/or actually has a poor understanding of partnered sex.<br /><br />Especially in a and b I'm not sure I'd say <i>mens rea</i> exists. In any case, wherever we draw the line for "this much nagging invalidates consent," whether by statute or common-law, someone will nag their partner just shy of that line and get assent that still doesn't represent consent.<br /><br />And bear in mind that down the hall from Robin and Pat, Sam really did exercise a person of unspecified gender's prerogative the third time Chris asked.<br /><br />In jurisdictions that recognize infliction of emotional distress as a tort, that may be the way to go for the relative handful of survivors who can avail themselves of it.Hershele Ostropolerhttp://essaressellwye.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-32399075025898139282012-05-22T23:24:28.829-04:002012-05-22T23:24:28.829-04:00I don't know if rapist is the right word to us...I don't know if rapist is the right word to use but I think I get where she's coming from - that one has a responsibility to let people know when they remove consent. And I agree with this. <br /><br />In a much, much milder example I had a friend one time who was obviously upset over something, wouldn't tell me what it was (I tried to let her know I was listening and then outright asked multiple times - just got, "I'm okay just tired/hungry/whatever) and finally months later she told me what it was I was doing that was making her angry - by that time, I was ending the friendship. Her circumstances had changed and something that had previously been okay was no longer okay, but she never told me this while I was doing it and I couldn't figure it out (and honestly, stopped trying to after two or three months). So I was crossing boundaries and I felt really awful about it once I found out - but I also felt angry and betrayed. I had a responsibility to her to not cross boundaries, which I didn't live up to, but she definitely had a responsibility to me to let me know her boundaries had changed, which she didn't live up to. So we both ended up hurting each other. <br /><br />Now, obviously, this sentiment doesn't count if consent was never given in the first place or if it was communicated as revoked as some point (safeword, in the example given) - and certainly if one senses something is wrong, I believe they have the responsibility to check in and re-judge the situation. But (having not read the context of the quote) I don't think those cases are what Hardy is referring to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-36336930650108119072012-05-21T11:18:58.503-04:002012-05-21T11:18:58.503-04:00Your list of types of consent that are real, but n...Your list of types of consent that are real, but not enthusiastic, leaves out the one that is most common in my experience. <br /><br />"I'm not feeling horny enough to be enthusiastic right now, but if we start, maybe this will generate the arousal and enthusiasm I'd like to be there."<br /><br />I've had lots of amazing experiences that started from this point, and reached the point of mutual enthusiasm, and the plan of "can't try unless there is mutual enthusiasm from the start" would have excluded these experiences.<br /><br />If things don't work out as hoped, this can seque into either "You know, just not feeling it right now; let's stop", or "not feeling it right now, but would like to continue anyway, since you're enjoying it so much", and it's important to create an environment where the first of these is just as easy to say as the second.<br /><br />I think really the right way to look at things is that the really important thing is *unambiguous* consent. Enthusiasm is one way to avoid ambiguity, but there are others, and they are OK too when there is real consent without enthusiasm. "Only enthusiastic consent is OK" is a way better approximation than "any utterance of the word 'yes', or any failure to utter the word 'no', is consent", and I think the "enthusiastic consent" idea exists to push things from the latter to the former, but with good communication, one can do better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-63507409093371006812012-05-20T21:18:25.881-04:002012-05-20T21:18:25.881-04:00This. Wonderful.This. Wonderful.ReanaZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-18302362142538999742012-05-20T10:38:00.241-04:002012-05-20T10:38:00.241-04:00TRIGGER WARNING FOR DISCUSSION OF BLACKMAIL RAPE.
...TRIGGER WARNING FOR DISCUSSION OF BLACKMAIL RAPE.<br /><br />As a law student, I'm going to bypass all the discussion that we civilized people are accustomed to, and scream about the shittiness of the law for a moment. <br /><br />There's the legal definition of consent, force, and coercion, and then there's the definitions of consent, force, and coercion that civilized people who respect other people's sexual autonomy adhere to. Sadly, the law maintains that blackmail doesn't equate to coercion, that coercion MUST involve a threat of imminent physical force. <br /><br />Let's assume worst-case scenario. Robin is, for instance, disabled or long-term unemployed or otherwise dependent upon Pat for basic sustenance, and would face problems of survival if Pat left hir. Pat tells Robin, "If you don't perform Sex Act A, I'm going to leave you." Because it's not a threat of immediate physical force, that's still not considered coercion under the law, even though Robin may not survive if Pat left hir. My crim prof and I went around and around on this. My argument was that if a person coerces another person into sex they do not want via blackmail that would, if carried out, severely negatively impact a person's very survival, that that is a threat of force. As someone who was lesbian-baited and blackmailed by another troop for sex I did not want, thanks to Don't Ask Don't Tell, I have some experience in dealing with this. If I did not perform, I would be outed to my chain of command, be dragged through the mud, and kicked out of the military. I would lose my income, my only career, my healthcare, and all my education benefits. This, to me, was a threat of physical force. Unfortunately, the courts, with all the biased shit that comes with them, do not see it the same way. Because I was never told, "Perform or I'll hurt/kill you," it didn't count as actual rape. I was severely hurt, triggered, and went through a LOT of mental and emotional shit when I learned that, "Oh, the rape that happened to you and went on for months? Wasn't really RAPE-rape."<br /><br />Contrast that with the view of consent and coercion and force that civilized people have. If you're blackmailing someone into sex they don't want, THERE IS NO REAL CONSENT AND IT'S FUCKING RAPE. END OF STORY.<br /><br />The bitter, angry survivor-cum-law-student in me is cynically saying, "So, next time you're faced with blackmail rape, better make sure you piss off your rapist enough so that zie physically attacks you, or else you won't be able to bring charges. Up to you."<br /><br />I fucking hate the (in)justice system. Why am I in law school?Keorihttp://keori.livejournal.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-82205717886991615812012-05-20T00:44:12.495-04:002012-05-20T00:44:12.495-04:00Thank you for this.
I've always likened it to...Thank you for this.<br /><br />I've always likened it to when you're at work and someone says, "Do you want to help that customer over there?" Frankly, no. No I do not. That person is going to call me a liar or a thief or something else, insinuate I don't care about them, and generally treat me like shit. They're going to make my day miserable and I'd rather go up and tell them to fuck themselves those self-entitled bastards.<br /><br />But I don't.<br /><br />I say "yeah, I'd love to!" and then wear my biggest smile and say "hi."<br /><br />As much as we like to pretend that relationships aren't transactions, they kinda sorta are in a way. Each relationship has give and take: some days I'm going to be very grumpy and irritable and insecure, and those are my "take" days. Those days I'm hard to be around. Other days I'll be trying to make up for it or just generally feeling affectionate and caring, snuggling with you all the time and just being a happy little puppy for you to play with. Those are my "give" days.<br /><br />Similarly, sex in relationships is often "give and take" just like anything else... and "enthusiastic consent" removes the "sure, why not?" side of consent. "Sure, why not?" is a perfectly valid way of having sex... as is, "I'll give you a blowjob if you agree to make dinner tonight." As is "Man I don't really enjoy going down on women, but my girlfriend/wife really enjoys it when I go down on her... so occasionally I go down on her."<br /><br />*It's ok to choose to do things you don't enjoy.* We're humans. We're farther thinking than that. I fucking HATE going to work, but I do enjoy making rent every month and affording food. I enjoy making rent and affording food considerably more than I dislike going to work. Welcome to the economics of life.superglucosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18398359404946835540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-9845789238276485552012-05-19T18:44:24.378-04:002012-05-19T18:44:24.378-04:00It's definitely not all about het-sex on this ...It's definitely not all about het-sex on this blog, and Cliff is great about establishing that. However, in much of the wider culture, the anti-agency argument IS mostly about het-sex, specifically the woman's role in it. The patronizing statement that Cliff mentions - "[y]ou say you're consenting, but I know better, you poor dear" - is leveled at women far, far more than at men. The denial of female agency and autonomy - that's what I object to, and I gleaned that objection from Cliff's piece as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-64840809143038562632012-05-19T16:47:45.770-04:002012-05-19T16:47:45.770-04:00I think there are several different things going o...I think there are several different things going on with tasting bitter stuff -- definitely kids find greens more bitter than most adults do, as well as the PTC thing. And of course some people just <em>like</em> a certain amount of bitter taste -- tonic water that wasn't at all bitter wouldn't be much good to me, for instance. I don't find brussels sprouts at all bitter, though, nor broccoli, so presumably I'm a non-taster of PTC. Collards and kale and such, yes, but bearably so unless they're badly cooked.Irenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-45216683713134081832012-05-19T16:16:12.527-04:002012-05-19T16:16:12.527-04:00The implied context of most of these discussions i...<em>The implied context of most of these discussions is het.</em><br /><br />Which I object to, and which seems a little ridiculous on a blog like this one. I thought Cliff did a pretty good job in this post of NOT implying that it was all about the het-sex.<br /><br />What does "spaghetti bisexual" mean? Google gets me nothing useful.<br /><br />Re "feminism for social position": why include the name of the cause in the sneer at all, if the specific cause isn't relevant?Irenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-1672267939690820242012-05-19T13:51:39.260-04:002012-05-19T13:51:39.260-04:00Orgasmia is spot on. The implied context of most ...Orgasmia is spot on. The implied context of most of these discussions is het. If you pay close attention, you'll notice that peoples attitudes change depending on context; the person who insists that one drink nulls consent when talking about hetsex will often make jokes about spaghetti bisexuals (because bis default to female and all). People do notice that sort of thing.<br /><br />----<br /><br />Feminism for social position is basically when someone spends more time and energy projecting the idea that they're a (whatever) than they do trying to improve things. Think anybody who cares more for self-aggrandizement than they do for getting things done. I don't want to single feminism out for something that happens in all sorts of causes, but at the same time, they don't deserve a free pass either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-38330157293262353952012-05-19T06:39:49.217-04:002012-05-19T06:39:49.217-04:00'Bitter' describes how those greens tasted...'Bitter' describes how those greens tasted to me when I was younger - I love them now, but when I was a kid I absolutely hated them. Is there a thing where 'tasters' can become 'non-tasters' as they grow up?<br /><br /><br />~TJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27532519974099197132012-05-18T22:37:19.489-04:002012-05-18T22:37:19.489-04:00Cliff wrote a while back about abstaining from sex...Cliff wrote a while back about abstaining from sex if you don't think your partner's really into it, even if they say they are, and that's what I had in mind while reading this. I agree that it's not just about the woman in a het-sex scenario, but that's the most common permutation of the anti-agency argument. I don't see it applied to other kinds of pairings nearly as often.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-91111081727825464662012-05-18T21:17:23.118-04:002012-05-18T21:17:23.118-04:00But who was even talking about policing a partner&...But who was even talking about policing a partner's desire? I didn't see that anywhere in the discourse. As far as I could see it was <em>outside</em> judgments that Cliff was talking about, not judgments coming from the other person in the relationship. Moreover, it's not just about heterosexual situations, and it's not just about whether the woman in a het-sex scenario has true agency.Irenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-15133837959379721642012-05-18T20:46:36.841-04:002012-05-18T20:46:36.841-04:00One more thing: Anon, while I agree with you, I do...One more thing: Anon, while I agree with you, I don't understand what you mean by "feminism for social position". Elaborate?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-87705483816725270832012-05-18T20:44:17.690-04:002012-05-18T20:44:17.690-04:00Irene, I see Anon's point. Policing a partner&...Irene, I see Anon's point. Policing a partner's desire, saying "I don't think you're really into this" because they aren't panting and moaning, can be a slippery slope. Trusting your partner to know their own mind is a key part of consent, and it applies to all aspects of our lives. <br /><br />Anon, I love you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-42130993597702357082012-05-18T13:02:16.720-04:002012-05-18T13:02:16.720-04:00It just seems to me that I hear so many stories (e...It just seems to me that I hear so many stories (especially from women, but sometimes from men as well) about people having early sexual experiences that they weren't very keen on, and I don't see why they bothered to take the risk. I remember one of my college boyfriends told me his sister had said something like "You wouldn't believe the crap I've put up with just to be held," and I thought it was terribly sad. Some large percentage of teenage mothers have their first baby before they've ever even had an orgasm. Stuff like that. In fact I read about a study a while ago about the average age for teenage girls in a particular area to first have sex being 17, while the average age of first orgasm was 19, and I just went -- bzuh? Aren't those numbers the wrong way around or something? How does that <em>happen</em>? <em>Why?</em> <br /><br />From my own early experiences, it seems to me there was a period when I just expected the head-spinning sensation of not truly knowing what I wanted to be part of my erotic experience. It was actually easier to get that experience with guys I wasn't as attracted to, which is kind of a recipe for bad relationships. Fortunately I then fell for a guy I really was attracted to, who had a much more straightforward approach that taught me a lot (though not soon enough -- I was probably a pretty maddening partner even with him).Irenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-63826620113299921142012-05-18T01:52:42.797-04:002012-05-18T01:52:42.797-04:00Alright, fair enough! That's pretty much perfe...Alright, fair enough! That's pretty much perfectly explained, actually.<br /><br />To be honest, I don't really see why it should be more imperative that inexperienced/young people in particular should have only that type of sex, as opposed to everyone having that sort of sex. Is it mainly the "sex to please my partner" argument that you don't like in this context?Javiia Evelynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-36134855633683728192012-05-18T01:36:29.024-04:002012-05-18T01:36:29.024-04:00Irene - That is true for me as well, but I get ver...Irene - That is true for me as well, but I get very close to the scared end of nervous - as in shaking, wide eyes, etc. It definitely doesn't mean I don't want to do it, and it doesn't mean it's going to stop me doing it, but, I dunno. I guess a large part of it for me is that I'm too busy being nervous/scared and forcing myself to do it because I want to. I dunno, it just seems different to "enthusiastic/horny" to me, more like a negotiation with myself?<br /><br />Pretty much just what Anon 10.48AM said. But I see your point about how it is something you're enthusiastic about, but it's just not necessarily something you're enthusiastic about at the time. Actually, that.Javiia Evelynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28148877653410765062012-05-17T19:26:41.426-04:002012-05-17T19:26:41.426-04:00Same anon from 5:29 "At the other extreme, i...Same anon from 5:29 "At the other extreme, if it is something that Robin finds painful or unpleasant or triggering, then I would seriously wonder whether Pat can be a 'considerate partner' if zie can enjoy something that zir partner hates."<br /><br />This was a bit badly worded. I don't think it's a problem to enjoy BDSM scenes where one person consents to something zie otherwise finds unpleasant. I also don't think it makes you a bad person to need something sexually that your partner hates. However, I do think if they hate it, you need to find an alternative solution, which might be breaking up or giving up that activity or finding another partner for that activity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com