tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post4285158388384409405..comments2024-02-23T03:38:53.049-05:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Rescripting sex.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-60984739630417375832013-08-07T10:54:57.653-04:002013-08-07T10:54:57.653-04:00I just came across this video and it immediately r...I just came across this video and it immediately reminded me of this post of yours. It is a parody of that Blurred Lines video called "Ask First" and kind of paints a wonderful picture of what sexy consent looks like in different scenarios.<br /><br />Video is definitely NSFW:<br /><br />http://vimeo.com/70304632#<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-22755627575692067502013-03-21T20:23:45.856-04:002013-03-21T20:23:45.856-04:00I loved this post when you first wrote it. I think...I loved this post when you first wrote it. I think now's a good time to revisit it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-42159965099176510032012-11-18T09:03:56.440-05:002012-11-18T09:03:56.440-05:00Please re-read all the stuff about how you DON'...Please re-read all the stuff about how you DON'T have to do it like Robot Lawyers, and how that's a strawman used to discount all ideas of affirmative consent.<br /><br />Of course you don't need to ask about a peck on the cheek in an established relationship. But don't use that as a <i>reductio ad absurdum</i> to prove that you don't need to ask before having intercourse.<br /><br /><i>My girlfriend is also a serial rapist according to a strict interpretation of affirmative consent rules, because I've woken up to her performing oral sex on me more than a few times. </i><br />If you had no problem with this, then she's not a rapist--she's merely a person who took the risk of being a rapist when she could have easily avoided it. Because what if you DIDN'T like it. Did she have any plan for that?Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-84654735330530360462012-11-14T19:20:48.812-05:002012-11-14T19:20:48.812-05:00Most couples (married or not) are allowed to be in...Most couples (married or not) are allowed to be intimate with each other in their own bed, it's a part of being in a healthy relationship. Is it not unreasonable to assume that the man is overstepping what is allowed in their relationship when he touches her without asking? What do you expect of men, exactly? That before I touch my girlfriend anywhere, I stop and ask: “Can I touch you here now? Ok! What about here? Ok great! Can I kiss you now?” My girlfriend would lose her freaking mind. Surely anyone would. We both know that we can show affection/be intimate with each other without having to stop and ask permission each and every time.<br /><br />There's such a thing as established boundaries in a relationship, and the continuing failure to recognize this is why I oppose affirmative consent standards in practice. Because they almost inevitably fail to recognize that long-term partners can have standing ground rules for what is and is not acceptable behavior in their relationship, and no one wants to be asked for permission each and every time their partner wants to kiss them on the cheek.<br /><br />An existing relationship does not necessarily imply consent to all acts, but there can be reasonable expectations of consent in certain contexts. I'd wager that very few people find it necessary to stop and ask permission each and every time they want to touch their SO in any way. My girlfriend is also a serial rapist according to a strict interpretation of affirmative consent rules, because I've woken up to her performing oral sex on me more than a few times. These kinds of rules are appropriate for a first date or a one night stand, but they're simply unrealistic when applied to long-term intimate partnerships. A "no" must always be respected in any context, of course, but isn't it unrealistic to expect someone to always ask permission before they touch their long-term sexual partner in any way?Morildarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740804069882153257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-38505735203889711602012-11-03T10:41:43.829-04:002012-11-03T10:41:43.829-04:00I think I'd just start giggling hysterically m...I think I'd just start giggling hysterically midway through-the robot-lawyer interaction... that's a plus, by the way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28818290419964618042012-06-12T17:03:51.173-04:002012-06-12T17:03:51.173-04:00Here's one of my favorite sex negotiation scen...Here's one of my favorite sex negotiation scenes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpqTbDiFVw0 . It's a little scary that the best model for sexual negotiation in movies is performed by two adults who are scripted as mildly developmentally disabled... but at least *someone's* showing how to do it.<br /><br />Janet HardyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28564190898511992352012-05-31T19:56:24.768-04:002012-05-31T19:56:24.768-04:00i haven't bothered to read all 90-some comment...i haven't bothered to read all 90-some comments, so forgive this if it seems redundant, but i just wanted to address the fact that the only sexual situations you've scripted are hetero--and, obviously, not all sexual encounters are. let's all just check ourselves, and our heteronormative default mode, every now and again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-40262785319520704892012-05-22T15:47:21.846-04:002012-05-22T15:47:21.846-04:00That response makes sense in a new relationship, b...That response makes sense in a new relationship, but I find it to be overly dramatic. <br /><br />If my partner initiated sex and I didn't say no because I was afraid that he'd get angry instead of stopping - it's obviously not a safe relationship.<br /><br />If my partner initiated sex and I didn't say no because I was afraid he'd be upset, though I knew he'd stop - that's really my problem and not his and I'd have no right to claim rape on that one.<br /><br />I find it ridiculous that people feel like a guy always has to ask permission. If my guy did that every time I'd just start finding it annoying and be less in the mood. We know each other well enough to tell pretty quickly if the other person is receptive - even if we didn't communicate so well. These kinds of conversations should take place pretty early on as far as what acceptable conduct toward each other is when initiating.<br /><br />In a new relationship sure - it's always good to check in. When your relationship is established you should be comfortable enough to stop each other if need be. <br /><br />I LOVE surprise sex. It turns me on faster than most anything else. Sometimes he initiates sex, sometimes I initiate sex, we've both had to say "Not now honey" on occasion. Adults should be able to say that to each other. Adult relationships should be able to take that. Adults should know enough about each other's preferences to know if it would be okay within that relationship or if you need to ask every time. Every relationship is different.<br /><br /><br />Just because you might not enjoy it, doesn't mean other people fell that way. Please don't pretend that your preferences apply with every person, relationship and situation.<br /><br />Sometimes I think people have gone too far past consideration, basic human decency and equality and into the realm of walking on egg shells around each other and making your partner feel grateful for every bone you throw him.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05571228059176302366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-75825405086715727482012-04-18T21:33:15.783-04:002012-04-18T21:33:15.783-04:00Sorry for another necropost; I recently discovered...Sorry for another necropost; I recently discovered this blog and am reading kind of at random.<br /><br />I think the main advantage of script 3 is that it's not robust against small deviations, in the sense that changes in the script in the directions of coerciveness are almost immediately obvious. As pointed out, it's possible to imagine a version of script 1 in which R does not consent, but gives no external sign of having done so. I think it's hard to argue that A should be sent to jail in this situation.<br /><br />Obviously (as pointed out) this is not very realistic, but there is a continuum of scripts between this and "R kicks and screams for A to stop" in which R makes the rejection more explicit - maybe R wiggles an eyebrow or something in one, then two eyebrows in another, then mumbles inaudible for A to stop, then actually tells A to stop in a kind of semi-jokey way, etc. At some point on this continuum, A should be sent to prison, but I think it's hard to see exactly where, so long as 1 remains the default script (i.e. so long as active consent from both partners is not the norm).Adamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15303524231447825635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-32111105851612439752012-04-10T21:07:24.448-04:002012-04-10T21:07:24.448-04:00Anon - That's a dangerous game you're play...Anon - That's a dangerous game you're playing. Is the joy of skipping a quick "may I?" <i>soooo</i> good that you're willing to take the risk that one of your partners doesn't say no, not because they want it, but because they're afraid you'll get angry instead of stopping?<br /><br />"Adult" or no, it shouldn't be your partners' job to keep you not-a-rapist.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-77268844917909872892012-04-09T23:45:42.156-04:002012-04-09T23:45:42.156-04:00Most of the women I've been with have loved th...Most of the women I've been with have loved the "surprise sex". She may be standing in the kitchen reading a paper or doing something else, I come and give her a hug from behind, kiss her neck, kiss a little more, caress her breasts, finger her, slip her panties down, bend her over the kitchen bench and take her from behind.<br /><br />No questions asked, no comments made, just actions.<br /><br />This isn't to say that this approach is welcome all the time. But adults have the ability to say "oh not now hun, not really in the mood right now". And that is completely acceptable. I've never been with a girl who didn't like "surprise sex". Maybe not always, but quite often it's very well received.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-59854019059040294332012-04-05T17:30:45.020-04:002012-04-05T17:30:45.020-04:00Wow that website hurt my brain....
And yeah, I...Wow that website hurt my brain.... <br />And yeah, I'm not surprised that your comment wasn't published.Bohobonfirenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-66679274581537981342012-04-05T17:01:19.991-04:002012-04-05T17:01:19.991-04:00Yeah... definitely wish that I was no too shy to s...Yeah... definitely wish that I was no too shy to say things like that... but I totally am. And it makes me incredibly tongue tied and flustered when people say things like that to me.... so yeah, fastest way to shut me up is to get explicit. <br />Funny thing is.. now I'm dating a guy who is equally shy.... but we manage to have these kinds of conversations over IM or text.... but then we get to the part where we are in person and we don't act on what we were talking about! Like... all of that was just hypothetical. But, I think even having those conversations in a text based scenario does a lot to help us communicate what we want, and develop and understanding so that when we are together we really know what the other wants. <br />Another bonus.... we really do have this amazing ability to read each other's body language... there are times where I am thinking words as he is saying them out loud. Blows. My. Mind. And... we have spectacular sexual compatibility. So, yeah... while we kind of have some two way conversation going... it is mostly comprised of meaningful glances....bohobonfirenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-29691570928446866882012-02-17T17:05:31.630-05:002012-02-17T17:05:31.630-05:00Yes. The sentence you quoted, DancingGrapes, is to...Yes. The sentence you quoted, DancingGrapes, is totally awful. That's certainly not the right order of things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-70294118848194788772012-02-15T13:38:37.276-05:002012-02-15T13:38:37.276-05:00Can this please stay on the net forever? Great ref...Can this please stay on the net forever? Great reference if you want to explain your ideas about sex and not start at zero.<br /><br />By the way, I also kind of like the "robot lawyer" script. And I define male and not overly shy, so there is more to it than just "cute beacause awkward".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-53697380306883117392012-02-11T13:57:33.464-05:002012-02-11T13:57:33.464-05:00Hello! I loved this entry so much I had to steal i...Hello! I loved this entry so much I had to steal it for my own blog :) <br />http://papercuttinghard.blogspot.com/2012/02/oh-yeeees-means-yes.htmlMarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17350558615380600870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-81067526036427122962012-02-10T04:15:00.714-05:002012-02-10T04:15:00.714-05:00...Of course, a person who'd kiss a totally un......Of course, a person who'd kiss a totally unresponsive partner would never follow the more communicative script, anyway, because they flat-out don't give a shit whether their partner is enjoying themselves...perversecowgirlhttp://www.perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-54854939529830007182012-02-10T00:55:48.066-05:002012-02-10T00:55:48.066-05:00Following script 1 is NOT externally indistinguish...<i>Following script 1 is NOT externally indistinguishable from rape. It's not as though R just sits there and doesn't object; if at any point R doesn't kiss back, grope back, etc, A will know to back off.</i><br /><br />Yeah...not so much. Or at least, not always. Trust me.perversecowgirlhttp://www.perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-22488372786255206312012-02-08T13:41:08.900-05:002012-02-08T13:41:08.900-05:00"I can wordlessly pick out a random friend, g..."I can wordlessly pick out a random friend, go up to them, and kiss them. It will be crystal clear within a second whether they freeze up, or whether they kiss back." <br />NO! Because if they "freeze up" or are uncomfortable however they display that, you have ALREADY done an unwanted (non-consensual) sexual thing. You've ALREADY sexually assaulted them. You did something sexual that was unwanted = sexual assault. Asking FIRST is the only way to know if it's wanted and therefor =/= sexual assault.DancingGrapeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04783328016444406467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-72313718044804642032012-02-07T23:38:07.456-05:002012-02-07T23:38:07.456-05:00Following script 1 is NOT externally indistinguish...Following script 1 is NOT externally indistinguishable from rape. It's not as though R just sits there and doesn't object; if at any point R doesn't kiss back, grope back, etc, A will know to back off. But at no point will R be called upon to be particularly articulate, or obliged to admit that any of it was their idea, and so can enjoy the experience without fear or guilt.<br /><br />By contrast, here's something more like how your script 3 would go:<br />Partners A and R are alone together. A detects (or wishful-thinks) the whiff of romance/lust in the air. A says to R, "You are so goddamn cute, you know that? I'd really like to make out with you."<br />R blushes, looks down awkwardly, and manages to emit an embarrassed "okay."<br />If A is particularly oblivious and desperate they might proceed for a few rounds of "robot lawyers", but A will soon realise that the requests are making R uncomfortable, and back off. Both will go home feeling rejected, though neither verbalised anything of the sort.<br /><br />Another issue: "you're enacting your sexuality and not some stock scene."<br />People follow "stock" scripts in these sorts of interactions for a reason: there's enough to worry and be insecure about the first time you have sex with someone without having to come up with your own original script as you go, to say nothing of laying out your sexuality for them to judge. An unfamiliar script/situation will make both parties uncomfortable. I'm optimistic that a better script than 1 or 2 could become widespread, but the participants still need to know the script in advance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-68121252099328914702012-02-07T17:04:26.755-05:002012-02-07T17:04:26.755-05:00The lack of an "active" and "recept...The lack of an "active" and "receptive" partner in the third script was extremely intentional.<br /><br />As for shy-shaming--this may come off jerkish, but I don't think it's okay to have sex if you're <i>so</i> shy that sex with you is externally indistinguishable from rape.<br /><br />I'm not saying people have to be as talky as I am, nor that they have to do their talking <i>during</i> the sex, but I am not okay with people, regardless of shyness, having such totally passive sex that it would take a mind-reader to know whether they wanted it.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-64663844624696857492012-02-07T17:00:13.977-05:002012-02-07T17:00:13.977-05:00Your point is unclear to me because between script...Your point is unclear to me because between scripts 1/2 and script 3 you vary two different variables, changing both the script and the characters. I would like to see a better "script" that would still work for the Active and Receptive characters from the first two scripts. As it stands it's easy to just read the post as "wouldn't it be great if everyone were extroverted?" (which it would in many ways, but they aren't - certainly not all the time). And then you end up with shy-shaming in the comments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-38948369381576693042012-02-07T06:33:24.662-05:002012-02-07T06:33:24.662-05:00My lover is simultaneously very horny and very, ve...My lover is simultaneously very horny and very, very shy. She has quite low self-esteem and confidence, and finds it almost impossible to initiate sex. For this reason it took us ages to sleep together - I'm happy being active, but I do need an enthusiastic response before I'll continue - but I slowly learned through conversation what she wanted and how she worked. We did some negotiation (in general, would you like this to happen?) and now I'll initiate by asking her explicitly if she'd like this to happen NOW. She finds saying "yes" difficult but making her do it is actually kind of hot, in an embarrassment-play sort of way, as well as good practice.<br /><br />We've also developed a sort of code where she can signal she's feeling playful by making bratty comments with a twinkle in her eye, or by pretending to be oh-so-innocent. Obviously it's not perfect, and I still need explicit consent before I'll take her up on it, but it's a subtle set of signals that seem to be working for her.<br /><br />She's also pretty quiet in scene, so as a top I'm still learning to strike that balance between checking in enough to play safely, and not checking in so often I'm driving her nuts. I'll say "I'm about to go a bit harder, okay?" and wait for her nod, or "I'm going to give you six and then check in with you." At the weekend she did actually stop me and say she needed me to go a little lower, which was really reassuring - I felt more confident after that, because it suggested I could trust her to communicate with me when she had something to say.<br /><br />Anyway, all this is about kinky play, which is kind of a sideline to what you're talking about. This post is awesome and I've linked the crap out of it. I've also written a follow up post talking about <a href="http://pandorablake.com/blog/2012/02/consent-and-negotiation/" rel="nofollow">communicative non-consent play</a>, which you might be interested in.Pandorahttp://pandorablake.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-77495349284858470172012-02-05T16:15:20.711-05:002012-02-05T16:15:20.711-05:00What to do then?
Again, a hypothetical solution:...What to do then? <br /><br />Again, a hypothetical solution: <br /><br />1. Since the man's fear of rejection is based on the fact that the woman can deny consent and then the chance of getting laid goes lost, I can level my chances with the female. I need to have (and communicate) the willingness to walk away myself. I (as a man) need to get into the mindset of "I grant or deny consent myself". Then both the female and the male have equal chances, the man doesn't feel disadvantaged and the fear of rejection is weakened. <br /><br />2. Since the woman's fear of rejection is rooted in the social stigmatization (the "she's a slut/pervert" thing), I as a man need to communicate my unwillingness to make quick judgments of character based on my difference from the other person. In other words, I need to be tolerant. I need to communicate that some people's "oddness" isn't for me the reason to run away screaming. That I don't categorize people into "normals" and "perverts". <br /><br />It's actually that simple. Here you go. You've read the blog post, and my lengthy comment, and now you know how to become happy within a day. <br /><br />End of rant. Damn, I'm so smart. ;)Tappmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01733248778622588995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-57387050743827040382012-02-05T16:14:52.632-05:002012-02-05T16:14:52.632-05:00It is, of course, all rooted in the patriarchal so...It is, of course, all rooted in the patriarchal social framework in which it is acceptable for men to make sexual advances and acceptable for women to "mostly deny consent". "Oh hell yes" from the lips of a woman is, as we all know, a really bad thing. Oh my god, she's a slut. "Would you like to" from a man's mouth is, on the other hand, a sign of weakness. What? He should be decisive. He cannot decide here, perhaps he won't be able to make decisions on his own in a different context. He is not a real man! (Well, he is great for conversations, so he could be our male best friend.)<br /><br />"You're so great to have conversations with, just like a girl," is another thing that a woman told me. And she was someone who was almost shocked that I've used words, and not just my body parts during our sexual encounters. <br /><br />Some people play by the old book and are afraid to change it. Some people play by the old book but would wish to change it. (Some people play by their own book and are very happy with it -- they don't need to read this blog entry at all :) ). <br /><br />So, I've exhausted my take on the "why". The other question that remains is "how". <br /><br />Since we've already largely agreed what the intended "new book" is, the simple answer for the "how" is "by changing from old to new". But since this change won't happen all by itself, we should ask the question "who". Who should change the script, or at the very least, make an effort to change it? Who will take responsibility for that effort? <br /><br />Being the ENTP "prick" type, I typically answer such "who" questions with "me". Of course I should make the effort. Give my partner the opportunity to play along, join the changing game. But I won't wait until my partner makes the effort while I'll be sitting and waiting patiently, sticking to the old book. <br /><br />So far, everything is quite simple: <br />1. We know that I should make the effort to change the script. (And hope that my partners joins the game.)<br />2. We know what the new script might be. (Roughly. My partner and myself will work out the details.)<br /><br />So, why hasn't this happened yet? <br /><br />Well -- we also know why I stick to the old book (I mean "I" here in a collectively representative sense for *men* -- being a man, it'd be sexist to lecture women collectively, but it's OK for me to lecture men collectively, so that's what I do). <br /><br />The reason why I stick to the old book is the said fear of rejection. The fear that if I start trying to change the rules, start mudding the water, then a possible outcome will be that my partner rejects me completely. I'll miss my opportunity to have sex, oh dear!Tappmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01733248778622588995noreply@blogger.com