tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post454515835612397262..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Getting negotiation going.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21190527479046001722013-02-18T15:45:40.212-05:002013-02-18T15:45:40.212-05:00Thank you for this.
I just sent this link to my L...Thank you for this.<br /><br />I just sent this link to my Love as a way of opening up a discussion, complete with a "can we do this, please?"<br /><br />So... yeah. Thank you. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-8041442672414309992013-02-17T08:37:18.224-05:002013-02-17T08:37:18.224-05:00Indeed. My partner (now wife) and I nearly split u...Indeed. My partner (now wife) and I nearly split up because she wanted children and I didn't. I decided being with her and making her happy was more important than my reservations, and I'm glad I did, but the reasons I didn't want children still look good to me.<br /><br />And of course once you're a parent, everything gets rather more complicated, because there's not just two of you in the relationship anymore (and unlike a polyamorous scenario, at least one of those involved never agreed to the idea!).<br /><br />Later this year, we're expecting our son to leave home for college (although of course he'll still need our support; only having one child wasn't a compromise, BTW, a planned second never materialised). Other big changes in our lives have also either happened or are planned. Also, although we still love each other, enjoy time together, and have mutually enjoyable sex, there are sexual aspects of our relationship I'd like to change - something I'm only just admitting to myself. So negotiation is clearly needed there - but when, where and how to start when we've jogged along without much of it in that area, and when there are so many other changes afoot?Crowhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-54046803701866883052013-02-15T19:12:25.875-05:002013-02-15T19:12:25.875-05:00We really need to do this thing. It's just... ...We really need to do this thing. It's just... hard.d..noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-42081337835773211352013-02-14T05:39:20.402-05:002013-02-14T05:39:20.402-05:00"We never argue" isn't good; it mean..."We never argue" isn't good; it means at least one of you is suppressing their disagreement.<br /><br />THANK YOU. I hate to see festering resentment in the place of reasonable open discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-73481133867061817352013-02-11T19:32:12.009-05:002013-02-11T19:32:12.009-05:00Great topic and some very useful questions to ask....Great topic and some very useful questions to ask. Thanks.Gomugirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03227506158069679657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-87974449512631517272013-02-11T09:28:05.823-05:002013-02-11T09:28:05.823-05:00oooh, good one.oooh, good one.Katienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-41562487107816203122013-02-10T21:10:07.791-05:002013-02-10T21:10:07.791-05:00This is mostly a very-early-on thing, but I wish p...This is mostly a very-early-on thing, but I wish people would be more explicit about their desires and expectations about how a relationship will progress. For instance--in what order do you expect intercourse, oral sex, and sleeping next to each other to happen? And with what respective degrees of emotional closeness?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-47819604341189835352013-02-10T14:14:26.492-05:002013-02-10T14:14:26.492-05:00Although there are situations where both groups/pe...Although there are situations where both groups/people legit need the rind, and there's no way around that.<br /><br />I'm wary of any negotiation or communication exercise (and actually, this is one of the problems I had with <i>Non-Violent Communication,</i> although I still like many of its methods) where it always turns out there was a super handy-dandy solution to make everyone happy. Sometimes a compromise really requires compromise.<br /><br />However, yeah, it's good to not go in with the assumption that everything has to be zero-sum.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-18160979868997090582013-02-09T14:53:12.804-05:002013-02-09T14:53:12.804-05:00Negotiations always remind me of the Ugli Fruit ex...Negotiations always remind me of the Ugli Fruit exercise that a lot of business training seems fond of using. <br /><br />http://hrlink.in/topics/training-game-excercise-ugli-oranges <br /><br />Basically both groups think they need the fruit to solve Big Important Problem and it turns out that one group needs the rind and the other juice and ha ha ha isn't funny how we both thought we needed the whole thing.<br /><br />It's basically root cause analysis. Keep asking why until it gets ridiculous. Focusing on what you need (warmth) vs how you're not getting it (blanket stealing) will get you to a solution faster.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27504658732559555502013-02-08T16:20:19.814-05:002013-02-08T16:20:19.814-05:00I think friendship negotiations are a great idea.
...I think friendship negotiations are a great idea.<br /><br />A lot of people think relationships - whether romantic or platonic - are just supposed to succeed by magic or something, so yeah, probably some people would see the idea of negotiations in a friendship as "over-formalizing"...but they'd probably say the same about negotiating a romantic relationship, too.<br /><br />And anyway, if <i>you</i> like the idea of having those kinds of talks with a friend, and your friend also likes it - that's an awesome sign of your compatibility, no?perversecowgirlhttp://perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-29939741218420775082013-02-08T04:25:13.681-05:002013-02-08T04:25:13.681-05:00Ozy also pointed out once that "perfect use&q...Ozy also pointed out once that "perfect use" isn't what you think it is. Condoms have a failure rate of 10-15 % for "normal use" and 2-3 % for "perfect use". Spontaneously, one might interpret "normal use" as "putting on a condom before sex the way a normal person would" and "perfect use" as "being a condom expert with a degree from condom university putting on a condom before sex". But that's not it at all! "Perfect use" just means USING A CONDOM EVERY TIME YOU HAVE SEX (and, well, not tearing a hole in it with your nails or anything). While "normal use" means "forgetting the condom and having unprotected sex once in a while".Jeppssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016901164247140438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-18155838936054669452013-02-08T01:00:19.594-05:002013-02-08T01:00:19.594-05:00I have two thoughts on this. First, I think that a...I have two thoughts on this. First, I think that actually brings up an interesting difference between monogamy and polyamory. In polyamory, there's somewhat more leeway for relationships where the people are 'incompatible' in some way, as long as that way can be dealt with, because of each partner being able to have other relationships to meet needs/desires this partner can't. Person A wants to have kids/move to Maine/go on an expedition to the North Pole/take a vow of celibacy and person B doesn't? Well, there's the potential for them both doing what they want, and still remaining in a relationship, just maybe a non-primary/non-lifepartner/long-distance one, etc. On the other hand, when you're looking for someone to be your 'one and only' there can be less of this leeway. <br /><br />Second, I think if there is a question of 'OK, can we be primary partners/one-and-only's/etc', that should be a separate discussion from a relationship negotiation meeting. I think that way it might be somewhat easier to handle the outcome - it would be 'OK, we needed to know if we could do this, and the answer is no', and not as much like punishment for being honest. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-84818691437398590892013-02-07T10:09:33.191-05:002013-02-07T10:09:33.191-05:00oops, too late I realised grammatical error...oops, too late I realised grammatical error...misspiggynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-9523382109775658922013-02-07T10:08:06.591-05:002013-02-07T10:08:06.591-05:00Perhaps another ground rule could be 'each of ...Perhaps another ground rule could be 'each of us will be both honest, calm and respectful, and we will not be responsible for how the other reacts to what we say'. <br /><br />My other half has been raised to feel responsible as a man for any negative feelings a woman might have. So when we discuss things, if I express concern or upset in response to something he says, he feels terrible and doesn't want to ever be honest again. This means he would feel very anxious going into this type of relationship discussion. I try not to get worked up when he says something unexpected or difficult, as well as trying to get him used to the idea that if I do get upset, it's my issue to deal with and not his.misspiggynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-81065778608433316442013-02-07T08:46:52.092-05:002013-02-07T08:46:52.092-05:00I haven't had metamour discussions in the sens...I haven't had metamour discussions in the sense you mean them, but I've recently had some intense three-way discussions about plans/life decisions involving me and two of my partners (who are good friends, but not partnered to each other). That along with discussions between me and each of them; I don't think they've sat down to talk about this without me, but they may have. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-11278686078592920502013-02-07T07:36:49.883-05:002013-02-07T07:36:49.883-05:00I'd say that the point of these State of the U...I'd say that the point of these State of the Union discussions is to minimise the incidence and severity of arguments. Developing a culture of conversation and negotiation in a relationship allows minor issues to be dealt with before they become argument topics. For example, I can say to my partner, "Can you make sure to put your McDonald's wrappers in the bin after you eat?", instead of "Clean the fuck up after yourself, you disgusting slob."<br /><br />I don't think we're repressing or bottling emotion by not arguing/fighting; I think issues of contention are dealt with before they *need* to become arguments.Caramellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07856730310205045704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-49558151810964141332013-02-06T23:15:54.091-05:002013-02-06T23:15:54.091-05:00Laura, THANK YOU for the thing about failure rates...Laura, THANK YOU for the thing about failure rates. As a 21-year-old who considers herself well educated about birth control, this still confused me. Charts always seemed to imply "per act of intercourse," but that seemed a ridiculous high rate of failure to me, so I cautiously assumed it was something else. <br /><br />Wow I feel stupid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-75413463091430024392013-02-06T17:22:28.936-05:002013-02-06T17:22:28.936-05:00YES THIS. There are times when I really wish my hu...YES THIS. There are times when I really wish my husband and I had established the habit of kissing hello and goodbye -- it must have seemed way too mechanical, too 1950s or something, back in the day. And there's a tendency when people have kids to transfer a great deal of the physical give-and-take to the relationship with the child, who after all needs it more, and end up stinting the adults. It doesn't help that I grew up with parents who were very distant with each other (to the point of separate bedrooms -- and not for practical reasons like sleep problems).Irenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-38367824001833333532013-02-06T17:16:43.446-05:002013-02-06T17:16:43.446-05:00Some people will actually pick fights because they...Some people will actually pick fights because they really like make-up sex (I have only heard about this -- no direct experience -- and I'm definitely not claiming to know what was going on with Hershele's ex). I think there must be some healthier way to meet that need, but I'm not sure how, because I don't know what about it works for them. It's possible other risky, out-there, emotional discussion would put them in the same frame of mind without triggering the other person's "no, I'm in conflict with you, sex is the last thing I want" response.Irenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-47646410186216186122013-02-06T15:59:43.116-05:002013-02-06T15:59:43.116-05:00Thanks for this.
I'm wondering at the moment ...Thanks for this.<br /><br />I'm wondering at the moment whether some sort of similar-ish 'negotiation' model could be applied to platonic friendships? Realise this is a broad area but I quite like the idea of having an agreed allocated time to talk things over in a similar way, but also wonder whether it comes off as over-formalising/dramatising friendships or something... thoughts would be appreciatedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-80188690818181920602013-02-06T15:10:51.216-05:002013-02-06T15:10:51.216-05:00I agree with Dvarghundspossen... it's totally ...I agree with Dvarghundspossen... it's totally possible for two people to just rarely disagree. Or at least, rarely disagree on anything important. My "partner" (aka non-romantic life partner cohabitating friend) and I have disagreed to the point of arguing on maybe 2 important things over a decade long relationship. For the most part the things we disagree on are more the different-opinion-doesn't-bother-me flavor than the this-is-a-big-deal variety.<br /><br />Of course, we have plenty of minor disagreements. But they don't rise to even the level of civil argument - we pretty much stick to friendly negotiation that leaves everyone happy. We also have... scuffles? Where one of us is grumpy/stressed and grumps at the other one and hurts her feelings, then apologizes for being a jerk. This is distinct from debating: I LOVE to debate things for hours on end, and get very passionate about it. But generally that's more of a brain exercise than an interpersonal problem-solving thing.<br /><br />Anyways. I think people should be able to argue constructively when appropriate. I just don't think disagreement is a guaranteed thing.Baytreenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-8174335700160329392013-02-06T12:22:02.938-05:002013-02-06T12:22:02.938-05:00Yeah, once you reach a certain age, children/no-ch...Yeah, once you reach a certain age, children/no-children is CRUCIAL.Jeppssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016901164247140438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-36086342702017458872013-02-06T12:20:17.798-05:002013-02-06T12:20:17.798-05:00And there's a difference between supressing di...And there's a difference between supressing disagreement and just not disagreeing.<br /><br />I've had fun relationships when I was young where me and my partner were pretty different from each other and would argue regularly over various stuff. However, when I met my now husband, it was so different from anything I've ever experienced before, just because we think so much alike, have such similar tastes and have also lived very similar lives up to the point where we actually met each other. It was this epiphany of "wow TOTAL SOULMATES!" that made us decide to get married after we've been a couple for a few months. <br />If by "argument" you mean anything more than just "minor disagreement on some unimportant issue" we might have had like... five? six? arguments during twelve years of marriage. Which is probably pretty odd. And I totally respect the opinion of people who think it must be boring to be this similar, although we think it's awesome. <br /><br />But the point is; it would be weird to have a "couples should argue" rule. Like, what should we do with that rule? Have arguments like the ones you sometimes had in high school, where you got handed an opinion and then you were supposed to defend it against an opponent who had been handed the opposite opinion? Much better with a "couples should not suppress disagreements" rule!Jeppssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016901164247140438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5153412416481786832013-02-06T12:11:53.967-05:002013-02-06T12:11:53.967-05:00Scarleteen also has a book outScarleteen also has a book outbrigethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03401136571914563283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-88908053556182148452013-02-06T09:25:05.826-05:002013-02-06T09:25:05.826-05:00But sometimes from an open discussion as such you ...But sometimes from an open discussion as such you might expose inconciliable differences that you weren't aware of before... <br />With a previous partner - we didn't call it any "meeting" name, just a question, how do you see yourself in 5 years - we found out that I wanted to have kids and he didn't. We loved each other dearly but shortly after that conversation we decided to break up. <br />What I mean is: I agree with not firing up during an open conversation, get into a fight and break up. Of course. <br />But what if something really big comes up and there is no possible agreement? All the example about pregnancies (wanted or not) and kids leave very little space to compromising unfortunately...<br />Just to say I don't think anybody can guarantee to the other partner that there will be no break up - well just as you can pretty much never guarantee something like that...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com