tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post5069855775694484405..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: "No means no."Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-17926915299605550982011-11-12T14:01:13.571-05:002011-11-12T14:01:13.571-05:00@perversecowgirl: maybe some people are manipulati...@perversecowgirl: <i>maybe some people are manipulative douchebags who want to feel "taken by force" or who think being asked for consent "ruins the spontaneity" or some shit...but I believe those people are in the minority.</i><br /><br />Just thought I'd point out that not all people who want to feel taken by force are 'manipulative douchebags'. Some just like being dominated in that way, or have rape fantasies. I know quite a lot of people whose kink is 'rapeplay', or 'consensual non-consent'.<br /><br />I'm in a D/s relationship, and it really gets my adrenaline going when we engage in this type of play. Obviously this is all pre-negotiated, my partners know this is what I want and still check before things happen what kind of sex I want. And just in case a signal is misread, we have the traffic-light code (because 'no' in a play-rape scenario really isn't helpful). Green=go, everything's ok, please do more of this, Amber/Orange=Slow down, no further please, Red=stop this immediately, something's gone wrong, something needs renegotiating etc.<br /><br />In this kind of play, asking for consent would chane the whole dynamic of the scene. We negotiate things beforehand (sometimes earlier in the day) so that when we start playing later we both know what kind of play's on the cards and we don't have to change the mood of the scene.<br /><br />Sorry to drag it off-topic slightly.Charlienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-71095876147750445022011-08-26T08:21:42.329-04:002011-08-26T08:21:42.329-04:00I lost my virginity to a man who didn't obtain...I lost my virginity to a man who didn't obtain consent either. He was just overpowering, and I was frightened. However, I wouldn't call it rape because I did not object. It didn't traumatize me; it was, unfortunately, in line with my previous experiences. Almost all of them had involved men pushing me beyond my boundaries. At the time, I didn't expect anything better.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89044519995507668212011-08-25T21:36:42.795-04:002011-08-25T21:36:42.795-04:00I can think of an incentive for asking rather than...I can think of an incentive for asking rather than assuming that have nothing to do with staying out of jail or even not being evil, but I don't want to bring it up because you shouldn't rape people even if you're not getting a cookie for it.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27230083670824774862011-08-24T20:18:18.799-04:002011-08-24T20:18:18.799-04:00I'm a woman, but I've NEVER have problems ...I'm a woman, but I've NEVER have problems with asking for consent (with either male or female partners). I honestly have trouble understanding why it is so hard to ask someone how the feel. I'm trying to be sympathetic, but asking is something I NEED to do. I can't stay turned on at all if I have any doubt that my partner is enjoying him/herself. I think part of the problem might be that some people don't have a lot of experience asking, so I'm going to provide some examples of good communication techniques, okay?<br />It is AWLAYS good idea to make eye contact and act slowly, waiting for your partner to indicate consent by moving their body to align with what you want to do. This includes head tilting, hip lifting, leg spreading, etc. It should also include a lot of smiling. <br />Some ideas for verbal checks (all of these can be done in a sexy whisper):<br />"I really want to X now, can I?"<br />"Do you like this?"<br />"Is this too fast?"<br />"Do you want to move to your room?"<br />"Should I grab a condom/do you have a condom?"<br />"Do you want to X?"<br />"Can I X?"<br /><br />Sexual communication is a skill, the more you do it the easier it is. And it's IMPORTANT. When in doubt, ask. It's not optional.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-22370433060945679772011-08-24T18:20:15.397-04:002011-08-24T18:20:15.397-04:00Reminds me of my first time, and I'm a guy. It...Reminds me of my first time, and I'm a guy. It makes it hard to trust guys, it makes it hard to date (what if something happens that I'm uncomfortable with? will I say no this time? will he be okay with that?), and it makes communication with partners hard.<br /><br />Seriously, it's not that hard. Say (breathily, if you'd like), "I want to you right now," and then your partner may say "Yesss," or they may say "What about instead?" or "Another time, maybe". I fail to see how you lose out.heterodoxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-19808118745366563672011-08-24T12:29:29.284-04:002011-08-24T12:29:29.284-04:00I actually very rarely say an outright verbal '...I actually very rarely say an outright verbal 'yes' to sex, even when I want to, and it's for a truly twisted reason:<br /><br />Because once I say yes, I feel like I HAVE TO HAVE IT. I feel like if I say no, or unsure, I'm allowed to later change my answer to yes. But if I say yes, then there is no longer any choice: I'm getting fucked, and I may not change my mind. I have officially verbally consented, and now I must fulfill my contract.<br /><br />This was how I was sexually abused: as long as a 'yes' got gouged out of me, no matter how reluctant, no matter how unenthusiastic, no matter if I was rigid or curled up in a ball or even fucking CRYING, I was obviously consenting to sex, and if I backed out, then I was a cheat and a liar. (This also was how I was able to walk around for years thinking this was normal--after all, I said yes, I just curled up and cried afterward while he cleaned himself up and told me I'd feel better next time. How could he have KNOWN?)<br /><br />I'm still skittish enough that I need the reassurance that I can always say no, always stop everything at the drop of a hat.<br /><br />--RoganLBThttp://healthymultiplicity.com/loonybrainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-31914953063591114282011-08-23T20:02:30.858-04:002011-08-23T20:02:30.858-04:00I'd add that if someone has a sexual abuse his...I'd add that if someone has a sexual abuse history, particularly if it's childhood abuse, zie often has trouble defending zir own boundaries. This is part of how revictimization happens. Predators look for those with weak boundaries in hopes of pushing them with as little trouble as possible. Someone who's already been taught that zie is "not allowed" to say no may well have trouble speaking out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-50863818424079833942011-08-23T12:02:44.060-04:002011-08-23T12:02:44.060-04:00I'm a lot more likely to get physical with som...I'm a lot more likely to get physical with somebody who asks me than somebody who touches me without permission or attempts to do so. Not asking is decidedly unsexy to me. :)<br /><br />It also makes me feel happier if I'm asked how I feel during the act. A partner who is willing and able to stop and check whether I'm still comfortable and actually enjoying the experience is one I'd be going back to for sure. Checking on your partner applies to vanilla sex as well as BDSM and acrobatic sex.SuccubusBoyhttp://renegadesaint.deviantart.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-87632398730692079752011-08-23T08:58:17.401-04:002011-08-23T08:58:17.401-04:00Holly: I would also add that the "repeat busi...Holly: I would also add that the "repeat business" will be with people who initiate and make eye contact and moan and stuff. So it's <i>better sex</i> than the sex you'd have with someone who's frozen up or grudgingly "going along with it."<br /><br />It really seems like giving a shit about one's partner's well-being is the clear way to go here...but obviously other people's mileage may vary. :Pperversecowgirlhttp://www.perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-78269612003609136662011-08-23T08:42:24.391-04:002011-08-23T08:42:24.391-04:00Actually, there's another incentive in play he...Actually, there's another incentive in play here--repeat business.<br /><br />If you accidentally terrorize your sexual partner, they may not stop you, but they're not coming <i>back.</i><br /><br />Being a jerk might get you laid once, but waiting for affirmative consent is a lot more likely to get you a on a regular laying schedule.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-63773038354339311432011-08-23T05:50:01.138-04:002011-08-23T05:50:01.138-04:00Some people will always do the 'right' thi...<em>Some people will always do the 'right' thing, some people will always do the 'wrong' thing, and some people will be more likely to do the right thing if there's an incentive to do so, or at least no incentive not to do so.<br /><br />...<br /><br />If the incentives are not aligned with what you want to happen -- as seems the case -- then you can say "tough", as you have done, which doesn't seem to get us much further, or we can start to talk about how to get the right incentives in place... </em><br /><br />Ok...but there <em>is</em> an incentive to do the right thing: the fact that it's the right thing to do. And coincidentally, this is also the <em>right</em> incentive. If you don't care about doing the right thing, then extra incentives aren't going to make you care. And if you really do care, extra incentives aren't necessary.<br /><br />Holly's posted an article that shows <em>how</em> to avoid traumatizing/violating your sexual partners. She shouldn't need to explain <em>why</em> to avoid violating your sexual partners, because the reason should be obvious to anyone with a conscience, and impossible to appreciate for anyone without a conscience.Alex51noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5669539240066156392011-08-23T04:12:18.240-04:002011-08-23T04:12:18.240-04:00Several people have asked how we could incentivise...Several people have asked how we could incentivise people to ask for consent, or to, you know, not rape. Well, aren't we doing that right now? We're having a conversation together, on the internet, about what is right and what is wrong, and why, and how to do the right thing. And doubtless many more people are reading this than participating, and maybe some of them wil be inspired to fix their own bedrooms, as well.<br /><br />Anon at 10:42: That would call for a Tumblr! A place where people could submit sucessful relationship communication stories! Or why not a blog post, yeah.Samnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-50334775349445121242011-08-23T00:07:56.722-04:002011-08-23T00:07:56.722-04:00@Hershele Ostropoler: What makes it society's ...<i>@Hershele Ostropoler: What makes it society's job to incentivise you not to drive recklessly in your 4WD tank, apart from the penalty for manslaughter? Because no-one thinks they're a killer (well, they certainly don't intend to be) and by the time the accident happens it's too late.</i><br /><br />And people do intend to be rapists? Decent people? As Holly said, isn't not raping someone incentive enough?<br /><br /><i>Also. Do a significant number of girls actually do the whole playing-coy-pretending-not-to-want-it thing? If so, society makes me sad</i><br /><br />Not nearly as many as you'd think from reading the comments of a feminist's blog post about rape and consent.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39846366633393272222011-08-22T23:44:01.906-04:002011-08-22T23:44:01.906-04:00In all fairness, he asked and actually waited for ...In all fairness, he asked and actually waited for a positive (if yes, hesitant and unenthusiastic) answer before proceeding. Most of society wouldn't have blamed him for just carrying on, given that there was no clear dissent.<br /><br />As much as I'd like to say he was a horrible person, he was a horny 17 year old boy with a 16 year old girl with her pants undone in his bed, and he did actually ASK, which is more than my next 3 partners ever did. <br /><br />While I remember him with zero fondness, he wasn't a bad person. He wasn't even really a bad boyfriend. I was a horrible girlfriend, actually. <br /><br />But if I could go back in time, I'd communicate that one answer much better.teazombiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04238204447709781800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-34491464308548503302011-08-22T22:51:12.200-04:002011-08-22T22:51:12.200-04:00@Essie - it's amazing how hard that is to teac...@Essie - it's amazing how hard that is to teach yourself. I was pretty much the same way with my first sexual partner. I had no idea how to speak up about what I wanted or didn't want. Now, many years later, I think I actually surprise people with how comfortable I can be...but it was a long road of intentional effort to get there.<br /><br /><br />@Anon(s) - No, seriously, you do not get a pat on the head for not raping someone. I realize there are probably some girls out there who like to play coy and all that. I do not think it is worth the risk of sleeping with those girls, because if they don't tell you than howthefuck do you know they aren't actually frozen with terror? Is that really worth the risk to you?<br /><br />I have a hard time believing asking makes it more likely for you to get a "no," but if it does...does that not indicate that maybe she didn't really want to have sex with you in the first place, but didn't know HOW to say "no"?<br /><br />Here is an analogy that may fit better than the wallet one:<br /><br />There is a plate of cookies on the table. In the past, your mother has made cookies and given some to you. So there's a reasonable chance that it's okay for you to take them. However, if your mother is not there to explicitly tell you those cookies are for you, you have no way of knowing if it's actually okay for you to take them, or if she baked them for someone else. So if you take a cookie, there's a chance that it will be okay, and a chance that it won't. But if you just find your mother and ask her, you can know for sure--problem solved, no potential guilt.<br /><br /><br /><br />Also. Do a significant number of girls actually do the whole playing-coy-pretending-not-to-want-it thing? If so, society makes me sad :(theLaplaceDemonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-54949563191806126112011-08-22T22:47:47.793-04:002011-08-22T22:47:47.793-04:00(On a re-read, my first paragraph came off poorly....(On a re-read, my first paragraph came off poorly. To reiterate, you're allowed to test another person's comfort zone when you're feeling them out. If you put your hand down their pants, you can tell the difference between someone who pulls you in closer and someone who freezes up. Paying attention to those signals and reacting properly is what's important, not whether you make the other person momentarily uncomfortable because you have to test things before you know how they'll go over.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-9174637351418688992011-08-22T22:42:30.055-04:002011-08-22T22:42:30.055-04:00Anon 9:41: I think far too much of this hinges on...Anon 9:41: I think far too much of this hinges on the people who mention enthusiastic nonverbal consent. Asking for explicit permission before any escalation has a horrible success rate in the real world. Paying attention to your partner and realizing when they're uncomfortable is part of being a decent human being.<br /><br />Essie: Come to think of it, it'd be nice to have a post where people shared their stories of what happened after they said that they weren't comfortable. Or what happened after a partner asked for a cooldown. Just so that for one place on the internet, there's a place that normalizes that sort of communication, and shows that it's really not a big deal. Something to help reinforce that it's okay to have second thoughts, it's okay to communicate them, and to undermine the horror stories by pointing out how often no is actually respected. As something to keep in mind the next time someone feels disempowered to speak up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-85232535035661980952011-08-22T21:58:25.083-04:002011-08-22T21:58:25.083-04:00The first few times I fooled around with guys I wa...The first few times I fooled around with guys I was astonished at my own inability to speak up about what I wanted. When I was 21 (and a virgin, incidentally) I brought a stranger back to my room from a party with every intention of sleeping with him, only to realize I wasn't enjoying it and if I wasn't going to feel pleasure what was the point? Only I couldn't verbalize that feeling at all. Like I literally could not speak.<br /><br />I remember looking up at the ceiling as this guy sucked on my breasts and stuck his fingers in my pants and thinking, "What kind of strong woman are you? What kind of feminist? Why don't you just say something? What's *wrong* with you?"<br /><br />Luckily for me he got a phone call and in the 1-2 minutes it took him to answer I rehearsed the words "I'm sorry I don't want to do this please go" over and over and when he hung up the phone and reached for me I managed to force them out. And luckily for me he was like, "Yeah, sure thing," and left really fast and I was able to go downstairs to my friends and freak out with them while they hugged me.<br /><br />I was still in this inability-to-speak mode when I met my first serious boyfriend a few years later. The first night we hooked up I again thought I wanted sex, but when it came down to it, I wasn't ready and it wasn't doing anything for me pleasure-wise. And so I became a little less enthusiastic and hands on and he noticed that really fast. He looked in my eyes and asked, "Are you all right? Do you want to keep doing this?" And when I didn't say anything, because of course I had gone nonverbal again, he just laid down next to me and put his arm around me and said, "That's fine, let's just cuddle."<br /><br />The first few months of my relationship with him, I worked through my difficulty with speaking during sex, and by the time we broke up over a year later I'd become a very, very good communicator. And with the sexual experiences I've had since I've had no problem talking about what I want and don't want and asking my partners what they want to do. But it was definitely a skill I had to learn, and I was really, really surprised as I became sexually active that it was a skill I needed to acquire at all.essiehttp://anotherfeministsexblogger.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30986696444803364282011-08-22T21:57:51.725-04:002011-08-22T21:57:51.725-04:00@Anonymous 9.41 -- Your analogy would be correct o...@Anonymous 9.41 -- Your analogy would be correct only if when Holly said "He didn't rape me," actually he did. You would impose your idea of rape on her.<br /><br />What we're talking about here is not people who deliberately rape, but people who don't put enough care into making sure that their partner is 100% fully enthusiastic about what they're doing.<br /><br />How can you incentivise people to be more careful? Well, it doesn't help if it appears that the incentive is to be more 'confident' (bodice-ripper style) and <em>less</em> careful...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-36268654772731108132011-08-22T21:50:46.947-04:002011-08-22T21:50:46.947-04:00@Anon 9:17-- While a good theory, that would be se...@Anon 9:17-- While a good theory, that would be seriously sketchy and open to all sorts of abuse in practice. What if A and B had an argument, and A alerted B's profile as revenge? What if C alerted D's, but D was the actual victim in whatever occurred between them? Plus there's the slanderous element of it, which is most likely why the rapist's name was omitted from the girl's post.<br /><br />While I agree that there are very few public disincentives for acting like a jerk, I do think that there are plenty of private (as in, within a social circle) disincentives. For example, if one of your friends always gets a bit sketchy (not as in 'CREEP', more as in 'too blind drunk to realise the guy she's all over isn't into her'), it's not difficult to pull her off him at the time, and embarrass her with it the morning after (or any other gender combination)-- I'd say that's a pretty strong disincentive, especially when we're talking about selfish (and not criminal) behaviour.S_Morlowenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7679902807529122572011-08-22T21:41:57.540-04:002011-08-22T21:41:57.540-04:00An analogous situation might be picking up and ret...<i>An analogous situation might be picking up and returning a wallet that you've noticed someone has dropped. If they respond unpleasantly and give you a hard time about it then you'll be less likely to do it again next time.</i><br /><br />No, Other Anon, an accurate analogy would be closer to be the following:<br /><br /><b>Person A:</b> Sometimes I steal people's wallets! Maybe I'd even steal yours if I had the chance.<br /><b>Person B:</b> That's awful! Also, if you stole my wallet I'd be totally screwed - I keep all my rent and grocery money in there!<br /><b>Person A (whining):</b> But if I didn't steal from people, I'd never have any money to go the movies or eat dinner in restaurants!<br /><b>Person B:</b> ...and your movie budget is more important than my entire livelihood <i>why</i>, exactly? <br /><b>YOU:</b> PERSON B YOU ARE BEING MEAN. Also, trying to teach hir empathy and priorities is silly and you're not allowed to feel angry or defensive at the thought of someone taking your rent money and spending it all at TGI Friday's. Instead, you should be giving Person A a cookie every time zie doesn't steal a wallet!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-10952414822955929102011-08-22T21:25:38.524-04:002011-08-22T21:25:38.524-04:00@Hershele Ostropoler: What makes it society's ...@Hershele Ostropoler: What makes it society's job to incentivise you not to drive recklessly in your 4WD tank, apart from the penalty for manslaughter? Because no-one thinks they're a killer (well, they certainly don't intend to be) and by the time the accident happens it's too late.<br /><br />Where are the speed cameras of the dating world? And what can we do to build 'em?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-38788742453332303222011-08-22T21:17:29.428-04:002011-08-22T21:17:29.428-04:00@Holly In your story, were you to re-write it, how...@Holly In your story, were you to re-write it, how could you have motivated him to establish explicit consent instead of doing what he did? (Which was not rape, from what you've said.)<br /><br />This maybe straying from the subject a little, but I rarely see <em>disincentives</em> for acting like a jerk. For example, on FetLife I saw a story of an actual rape within the bdsm community. Kudos to her for speaking out, but (unless I've missed it) there is <em>no actual mention of his name</em>. How the hell are newbies to that scene to find out that this guy is to be avoided?<br /><br />I'd like to see some kind of 'Alert' feature for negative feedback in FetLife so that this kind of info can be directly and indelibly linked to the profiles of predators. Maybe you're allowed to anonymously post an Alert when you de-friend someone, which will then stay on their profile, and people who notice it can correspond anonymously with you to discuss further. And obviously people can comment on the writing, as can you, again anonymously.<br /><br />Is that something worth pushing for?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30227078439352712902011-08-22T20:26:57.950-04:002011-08-22T20:26:57.950-04:00Well maybe you should. Some people will always do ...<i>Well maybe you should. Some people will always do the 'right' thing, some people will always do the 'wrong' thing, and some people will be more likely to do the right thing if there's an incentive to do so, or at least no incentive not to do so. And I'm not talking about rape; I'm talking about establishing explicit consent in a non-rape situation</i><br /><br />What makes it Holly's job to incent you not to rape people, I mean, not to have non-consensual sex with people?Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-84602728772673958502011-08-22T19:42:59.061-04:002011-08-22T19:42:59.061-04:00Anon - The problem is, I can't promise that a...Anon - The problem is, I <i>can't</i> promise that anything good will happen if you insist upon affirmative consent. I think it'll improve your sex life, but I can't promise it.<br /><br />And I feel kind of oogy promising it--I don't want to offer pussy as an incentive for not raping people.<br /><br />It may be that your only reward is "not being a rapist," and if that isn't its own compensation I'm not really sure what to offer.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.com