tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post5427198984559855015..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: What would you do?Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger102125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-44566093144672467882012-08-18T10:16:15.304-04:002012-08-18T10:16:15.304-04:00This is an ancient post, but I just figured out wh...This is an ancient post, but I just figured out what I would *ideally* like to do in this situation. Basically, I think I would own my discomfort. "Hey, Bob, could you stop that? It's making me skeeved out." Yes, I might look like the badguy, but it would probably make it stop, and without a way for him to blame her.cendarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00860154783961392281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-32989194795813977002012-08-09T15:42:00.114-04:002012-08-09T15:42:00.114-04:00It's been mentioned a couple times already, bu...It's been mentioned a couple times already, but it is worth repeating: If the man is an abuser, it is possible to make things worse for the woman by intervening, where he will take it out on her later for 'embarassing him' in public.<br /><br />He might not be an offender. Calling him out publicly might be good for her, good for him, educate bystanders, and reinforce the importance of consent culture. These are all great things. I know if I did it, I would also probably feel good about myself as a crusader for social justice.<br /><br />But if we don't know--and often we CAN'T know--if someone is an offender or not, it's still a roll of the dice as far as this woman's safety is concerned.<br /><br />Whether it feels like the right thing or not--and often not stepping in DOESN'T feel like the right choice because we feel like we're betraying our values--I think what you did was the SAFEST choice for the woman involved.Dan_Brodribbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14026291343082142533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-76398539791595558192012-08-09T15:41:38.125-04:002012-08-09T15:41:38.125-04:00It's been mentioned a couple times already, bu...It's been mentioned a couple times already, but it is worth repeating: If the man is an abuser, it is possible to make things worse for the woman by intervening, where he will take it out on her later for 'embarassing him' in public.<br /><br />He might not be an offender. Calling him out publicly might be good for her, good for him, educate bystanders, and reinforce the importance of consent culture. These are all great things. I know if I did it, I would also probably feel good about myself as a crusader for social justice.<br /><br />But if we don't know--and often we CAN'T know--if someone is an offender or not, it's still a roll of the dice as far as this woman's safety is concerned.<br /><br />Whether it feels like the right thing or not--and often not stepping in DOESN'T feel like the right choice because we feel like we're betraying our values--I think what you did was the SAFEST choice for the woman involved.Dan_Brodribbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14026291343082142533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-16550529336251482402012-07-06T07:57:46.942-04:002012-07-06T07:57:46.942-04:00This. I actually came up earlier with something le...This. I actually came up earlier with something less polite:<br /><br />"Dude, either one of us is really bad at reading non-verbal communication - either i am wrong in thinking you're doing something she doesn't want, or you're being really aggressive"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-233705604441752352012-07-05T20:22:12.479-04:002012-07-05T20:22:12.479-04:00i know i laugh when i'm feeling elevated...tha...i know i laugh when i'm feeling elevated...that goes for when i'm really turned on, really happy, and for when i'm really sad or nervous. laughing is my defense mechanism and there's probably all sorts of weird reasons behind it (wanting to be "cool" or not wanting to "cause a scene", feeling like an imposition if i say no, idk, feminism) but i would have appreciated someone asking if i was ok. i love rough housing so in all likelihood i would have laughed and said "yeah, totally fine! sorry if we're splashing you!" ...but i could also have been relieved. i don't know what i would have done if i saw it, but if i was the girl i would have wanted someone to at least ask.flipperynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-84612833399079517412012-04-06T18:01:14.688-04:002012-04-06T18:01:14.688-04:00I think what you did was fine and is probably what...I think what you did was fine and is probably what I would have done if I'd been there.<br /><br />With 20/20 hindsight, I might have said something like (addressing her) "Just so you know, this over here is the no-dunking side of the hot tub." If she says "That's OK, I like it here", you know everything's fine. If she moves and he follows and continues trying to dunk her, or she tries to move and he stops her, we have a clearer non-consent situation, where I'd feel less awkward about intervening more directly. And if she moves and he stops trying to dunk her, then you've gotten the message across.<br /><br />I suspect that in his head, he's not following the DS script he has from BDSM, which (giving him the benefit of the doubt) includes the negotiation and consent elements. He's following the "roughhousing in the pool" script from when he was 10, which has some very problematic consent elements, but which he has never really examined critically. Responding in terms of the D/S script can lead to him thinking "If I stop now, I've bought into this being an instance of 'creepy guy pushing bounaries' script; so I need to not back down and admit I'm doing something wrong". Responding in terms of the roughhousing script is more likely to have him back down in the way he did when he was 10 and the lifeguard blew the whistle at him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-44053133214386010872012-02-03T14:10:21.483-05:002012-02-03T14:10:21.483-05:00Telling other people in the scene who to watch out...Telling other people in the scene who to watch out for is not "trial by media." It's holding people accountable and it's helping keep each other safe.<br /><br />If talking about unsafe acts you've witnessed is taboo, then predators basically get a license to act in secrecy. They shouldn't get that. The right to privacy does not extend to "the right to abuse others in privacy."Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5871965186888668832012-02-03T14:06:56.465-05:002012-02-03T14:06:56.465-05:00Lauren, the gossip part is unnecessary and unethic...Lauren, the gossip part is unnecessary and unethical. Trial by media is a horrendous way of doing things because stories get blown out of proportion. "Bob was dunking Jane without Jane's permission" becomes "Bob was shoving Jane's head down without Jane's permission" becomes "Bob made Jane give him a blowjob." <br /><br />I think the correct thing to do is gently interrupt the situation. "Hey is everything ok here? I'm a nurse and seeing play like this in a hottub is a bit scary because I see so many people come into the hospital thanks to horsing around in a hottub or pool." Basically you're saying, "I'm watching something wrong happen." At that point they could reveal that they were M/s and this is perfectly normal for them... or if they're not the guy could realize he was being watched.superglucosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18398359404946835540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-85828333522082813802012-01-31T17:59:47.435-05:002012-01-31T17:59:47.435-05:00My priorities would be:
1. Interrupt the interact...My priorities would be:<br /><br />1. Interrupt the interaction<br />2. Stay relatively light in tone to avoid appearing "unreasonable" and/or making her feel like defending the interaction<br />3. Foreground her and her experience, ignoring him if possible. This removes his social power.<br /><br />In this situation, I think I'd probably just go up and introduce myself to her, maybe with a "Bob didn't introduce us" or "how do you know Bob." Depending on how she reacts, I might then move into a "He can be pretty childish, huh?" or "he's not as funny as he thinks he is" or inviting her to leave the area with you, maybe using the tampon/equivalent technique. <br /><br />Then I would go around and gossip about how Bob was being kinda rapey in the hot tub, in order to raise everyone's awareness/guard about it in the future.<br /><br />Another technique I often use is being really vocal and loud about my own consent when I'm in big groups. I have many times loudly told drunk guys I don't consent to being hugged by them. This makes everyone more cautious and starts to normalize that discourse.Laurennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-10514361475468402112012-01-24T17:07:40.615-05:002012-01-24T17:07:40.615-05:00I'm saving review of comments until I respond ...I'm saving review of comments until I respond to your question. I might stay as quiet as you did; that is very likely. But what I would choose to do, if uninfluenced by my own fears, would be to give the guy pressure to stop via humor and threat of potential consequences along the lines of, "oh C'mon MrX, don't make me put you in a time out. Play nice." Sure, it's a little passive aggressive, but gives him an opportunity to knock it off and save face. If he didn't I'd increase pressure as necessary to point of threatening to get hosts/authorities, whatever (which I don't think it would ever come to).NoxiousNannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-72545980632606517492012-01-23T01:35:46.661-05:002012-01-23T01:35:46.661-05:00This kind of dynamic really bothers me, and a big ...This kind of dynamic really bothers me, and a big part of why I also can't stand tickling. When the person doing the teasing is physically larger than the other person, there exists an unfair power dynamic that forces the other person into consenting to the 'game' and when they protest, are accused of taking it too seriously, being no fun, etc. It stops being funny/innocent when the game revolves around one person being physically weaker than the other. Tickling is also my personal trigger that I'm pretty sensitive to. I will destroy you if tickled, and the same goes for dunking.<br /><br />Having said that, I can't say I would have handled that situation any differently. My threshold for intervention would have been if the girl stopped laughing or indicated more seriousness somehow, but before that happens it's hard to know what you as an observer should do.Chelseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-64880668471426609652012-01-20T20:31:03.406-05:002012-01-20T20:31:03.406-05:00I am now Wafflebot. Fuck pancakes, love Kumar,
A...I am now Wafflebot. Fuck pancakes, love Kumar, <br /><br />Anyway, I wouldn't have let that go on for more than a minute. In fact, despite the fact that I'm a guy with a noted interest in mens' right issues (hopefully, I don't come across as a MRA frothing at the mouth with "manlee raege!"), I don't see any reason for that type of fuckery. Even *with* the acknowledgment that the party was "extra-legal" (I don't know if that means that it was thrown in someone's house without permission, kink-related or just plain "adult"/cross-generational), RACK exists for a reason! If she'd pulled her head back too quickly after one dunk too many and smashed it into the side of the tub, *everyone* is going to get screwed! There's a reason why all but the worst (and by worst, I literally mean crack-smoking/child beating/eternally homeless worst) parents teach their children to avoid "horseplay".Wafflebothttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LEN8smfxp0noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-23422382768848996002012-01-20T20:06:36.430-05:002012-01-20T20:06:36.430-05:00If I had the gut feeling you had I would have told...If I had the gut feeling you had I would have told him to take a chill pill. I was involved in a similar situation in a bar years ago. Suffice to say the bouncers didnt like me too much that night.Tit for Tathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454132514796693591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-86020949822328370752012-01-19T20:01:35.342-05:002012-01-19T20:01:35.342-05:00Ask her, hang on, do you want to play this game wi...Ask her, hang on, do you want to play this game with him?<br /><br />In saying this, you'll draw both of their attention to the reality of the situation.<br /><br />Whether he's playing a game and she doesn't know it, or she's afraid because it's not a game, you're going to know from the reaction to the question: "Do you want to play this game with him?"Alexahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01381421167000177092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-48152098168224635272012-01-19T17:37:06.616-05:002012-01-19T17:37:06.616-05:00I don't think you were out of line to just wai...I don't think you were out of line to just wait, watch, and be alert. If it had clearly gone too far, you could have jumped in. It's so hard to know how to gauge situations like that, especially in the moment. Which is why I tend to think of potential responses to situations ahead of time. In that kind of situation, I would want to assess the situation, and then potentially say something like "That doesn't (really) look like fun (anymore) - are you okay?" Not in a heavy-serious tone, but neutrally. So it's hopefully not a totally awkward buzzkill if the woman is still considering it to be in the general category of fun and actually everything *is* okay, but so it's immediately clear to her that you're there for back-up if she needs or wants it.AvaTrimblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07351000089253459996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26733214354691147392012-01-19T03:14:45.677-05:002012-01-19T03:14:45.677-05:00I initially felt I would have done about the same....I initially felt I would have done about the same. <br /><br />I shared this post with a friend, and she found it extremely triggering. She later told me she wished someone had once intervened on her behalf. I felt sick for causing her to revisit something so terrible that I wasn't fully aware of.<br /><br />Having that insight, I now feel I would at the very least ask if she was having as much fun as it appeared, then speak to the guy as appropriate to her response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-61908375498891780542012-01-18T18:34:44.892-05:002012-01-18T18:34:44.892-05:00It's funny. We are all afraid of breaking som...It's funny. We are all afraid of breaking some social code of conduct. But in both Holly's original case and Anonymous 12:26's case, the guy in question was ALSO breaking some social code of conduct. Why is there even a feeling that he should get a pass on his behavior? If it makes him uncomfortable, well, he was making her uncomfortable.<br /><br />I have an uneasy feeling it's because he's a guy. Both because we're socialized to think guys get to do these things, and because (some) guys are socialized to escalate when challenged, so the price of intervening could be quite high.<br /><br />If I think about the time I let myself be sexually harassed and, to my shame, did nothing about it (and later learned that he'd thereby been encouraged to do worse to someone else)....even though I would cheerfully kiss a woman, if a woman had grabbed me and kissed me by force like that I think I would have been much more up front about my objections. I let him get away with it because he was male, damn it. This is something I want to change about myself.MaryKayenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-57578496895784560082012-01-18T16:27:01.895-05:002012-01-18T16:27:01.895-05:00Holly, if by some chance you don't have the co...Holly, if by some chance you don't have the connections for this already, I would be happy - it would be my honor, even - to make it a personal project for 2012 to see that you do.PJnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-74145523765404698132012-01-18T15:26:13.515-05:002012-01-18T15:26:13.515-05:00I was in almost this situation the other day. My p...I was in almost this situation the other day. My partner and I were out with a mutual friend and a acquaintance from work. The work friend persistently hit on our (female) friend, until things came to a head (no pun intended) when he attempted this charming, subjugative manoeuvre. We responded by loudly telling him to stop, that that behaviour was making everyone uncomfortable and that it wasn't an okay thing to do. Later in the night I switched seats with our friend, placing her next to my partner instead. I felt confident in our deterrence because I made the effort to check in with her multiple times over the evening, to ascertain her receptiveness to his attentions (not at all) and ask what I could do to help her feel safe and comfortable. We changed the subject and allowed the evening to proceed, but there was no more sleaziness from his end. I know situations like this can be awkward, especially at large parties, but it takes literally 5 mins to quietly ask someone "Hey, I don't want to be rude, but before in the hot tub you seemed really uncomfortable with that guy's behaviour and I just wanted to see how you were feeling". If she admits to feeling uncomfortable, ask what you can do to help. If not, then let her continue with that evening. Too many women are left to deal with unsafe situations like this because we are afraid of seeming presumptive, or breaking some social code of conduct. I don't know about you, but I'd rather seem a bit weird then let a woman be harassed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-18770395729967973042012-01-18T14:31:09.316-05:002012-01-18T14:31:09.316-05:00I would have said, "Looks like she really doe...I would have said, "Looks like she really doesn't want to get dunked," with a "you need to stop" look on my face.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-55699360942644601282012-01-18T13:27:35.689-05:002012-01-18T13:27:35.689-05:00This is one situation that, as a lifeguard, I woul...This is one situation that, as a lifeguard, I would probably feel fairly comfortable intervening in as I have much experience telling people not to playfully dunk others. I'd probably say something like, "Dude, I know you're just messing around, but people can drown from playful dunking. Knock it off." But pretty much any other situation like this at a party my reaction might have been similar to yours.MadameScarletnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-12313895428681351272012-01-18T04:34:43.066-05:002012-01-18T04:34:43.066-05:00Arback quarterbacking isn't something I can re...Arback quarterbacking isn't something I can really do, since I think you handled the situation in a completely valid way.<br /><br />If it had been me in the situation, I probably would have asked the man and the woman if everything was okay. I'm a fairly straight forward person and I would rather make sure everything was alright, even if it was interfering.Kayleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16574243510673025850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-16678131421649496792012-01-17T20:43:05.546-05:002012-01-17T20:43:05.546-05:00I read most comments and scanned some -- Holly, yo...I read most comments and scanned some -- Holly, you have my deepest admiration for reading and processing all of them!<br /><br />In the post you say "it was clear that she for-serious did not want to get dunked". Going by your original expression it seems she was clearly uncomfortable. It also seems it was not a scene. It seems to me that the most important way of helping her is to inform both of them and empower her to clearly and forcefully tell him that this is not acceptable behavior. There's an unhealthy dynamic between the two if he keeps going despite her discomfort, and there's not much you can do to affect that in the one encounter you have.<br /><br />I highly doubt that in the real world I'd have the courage and presence of mind to follow through with this, but I'd want the ideal me to start by coming up, making eye contact with the woman and saying "hey, are you alright?". If he's an abusive asshole, there's nothing you can do in that one interaction to change the situation, imo. If that's not the case, you're indicating to her with that one question that what he's doing is not alright, in a non-confrontational way. You're not lecturing her or making assumptions.<br /><br />If either or both of them get pissed off at you for this minor intervention, you say "sorry, guys", back off, and try to put it in perspective. It's unlikely he's a sociopath who will go after you for this, and you didn't do anything unreasonable. A simple question in a public place doesn't justify such a reaction.<br /><br />Either way, I hope you don't feel bad about your reaction. It seems to have had the desired effect, and I really think what you, a semi-stranger, say to them at that one party won't change much in the big scheme of things.Wormy Apricothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03705299044278342742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30339624116621760882012-01-17T15:11:49.638-05:002012-01-17T15:11:49.638-05:00I just got back from Arisia (sci fi/fantasy con in...I just got back from Arisia (sci fi/fantasy con in Boston) where I staffed the Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Project table for a couple hours and attended a Sexual Harrassment in Fandom panel. So I have lots of techniques that I just learned! <br /><br />1. "Excuse me, I hate to interrupt if this is a scene or you're both just having fun! But (to the woman) are you ok with this?" Do not do this with someone who you suspect of domestic violence, because she will just pay for it when he gets her alone. <br /><br />2. MIME ALLY technique. Get into the woman's line of sight and out of the man's. Using gestures and facial expressions, or just making the words without sound, ask her if she's ok. If not, walk up and say something like, "You don't have her consent. Stop." Only do this if you feel physically safe!<br /><br />3. INTERRUPTING COW! technique. Anything to disrupt the scene. Fake a pratfall so they stop to offer you help. Cannonball into the hot tub and start a sea battle between your boobs. Fart really loudly and announce that everyone should get out of the room if they know what's good for them. If the woman was not having fun, she will take the opportunity to skootch away from the man. <br /><br />4. TAMPON technique - approach the woman and ask her if you can borrow a tampon. If she wants to loan you one and wants to get out of the situation, she will climb out of the tub. Even if she doesn't have any. If she was enjoying herself, you'll see that she looks sad to leave the tub. Then you can tell her nevermind, you think you have one in your car. You can also ask the person any question or favor that gives them an excuse to leave the situation. <br /><br />6. WAS THAT MY PHONE? technique - if you have their number, call them. Say "Hi, it's Holly. If you need an excuse to leave, just say 'Ok, I'll be right there.' Then come meet me on the back porch. Otherwise, you can tell me I have the wrong number." <br /><br />7. STINK EYE - what you did - is a perfectly good technique. It tells the aggressor that they are not getting away with it. If they're not really the aggressor, their partner will start giving you the stink eye right back, or flat out ask you what your problem is. Then you can make an apologetic face and leave. :)Sarah Morehousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15590734506065560328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-82829711308605431652012-01-17T10:47:13.466-05:002012-01-17T10:47:13.466-05:00And I'm totally up for signing up for the fun ...And I'm totally up for signing up for the fun police. I even have an appropriately silly costume for the role if required.Lilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01732305580991933305noreply@blogger.com