tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post6038720855404048137..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: How to not be creepy.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-62652247148075889592013-11-20T04:45:58.717-05:002013-11-20T04:45:58.717-05:00I've gotten a lot better in the social departm...I've gotten a lot better in the social department, even though I still have a long way to go. I honestly wish I had seen this blog post in my teen years, or even just a few months back. Thanks so much for this post. I had no idea I was creeping people out, and while I wish I could take it all back, posts like this will help me make sure I learn from the past and improve in the futureBronybynighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00084963230038512422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-44358761163546446642012-09-04T10:29:35.875-04:002012-09-04T10:29:35.875-04:00As a former very, very awkward teenage girl, I lik...As a former very, very awkward teenage girl, I like to think I can relate to guys who get frustrated when people are put off by them at times in social settings. It does suck because I did come from a background where I started believing a lot of the snide things people would say about me just in earshot. It does suck.<br /><br />The thing is, if this keeps happening over and over to you and you want it to change, then YOU have to change. Whether that means figuring out what you're putting out there and adjusting or finding a new social group, it's not THEIR responsibility to change for you. Part of being an adult is learning how to socialize with people and if you don't want to learn that then don't be surprised when people are put off by you.<br /><br />And as others have mentioned above, if you're just hanging out with a group to get sex, then you're doing it wrong, or at least doing it for the wrong reasons. People pick up on those sort of intentions very quickly, especially women because we're taught that it's our responsibility to check for men who can hurt us and it's our responsibility if we get hurt (which sucks for us when we're just trying to enjoy being social, but that's rape culture). So as mentioned in the article, one of the very best ways you can avoid being a creeper is stop focusing on a underlying motive and just have fun in a group setting.Kschenkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06655115199381639363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-74655497393579116092012-09-02T16:00:15.634-04:002012-09-02T16:00:15.634-04:00I really struggle with this and am pleased I follo...I really struggle with this and am pleased I followed the link here from fet. It seems just standing still, avoiding eye contact and trying to be as innoucous as possible still gets you labeled as creepy in the BDSM world. In my vanilla life the issue never comes up and it's confusing. I've all but given up on events and parties. I've no idea what I'm doing wrong.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13373850245962044926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-56238365292616522402012-08-21T10:46:16.423-04:002012-08-21T10:46:16.423-04:00Sorry for the ridiculously-late comment, but I'...Sorry for the ridiculously-late comment, but I'd like to extend the creepiness theory to non-sexual situations too.<br /><br />I say this becaues I'm a girl had a creepy-fucker experience at an LGBT night out, during which someone I was talking to, after spending about half an hour sitting too close to me and giving me condescending unsolicited career advice, responded to my casually mentioning that I was tired and would probably leave soon with ''What am I going to do then? I could come to your place and sleep on the sofa...'' and responding to my fairly polite refusals with ''Why not? You know I'm not a serial killer'' - supposedly in a jokey way. Afterwards when I mentioned to my friend how uncomfortable he'd made me, he gave me a confused look and said ''but he's gay...''<br /><br />I think it's the same kind of prnciple as sexual creepiness - it's about entitlement, although I feel like we don't have as much of an approved script for saying ''I don't want to be your friend'' as ''I don't want to date you.''Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-52809798751703594242012-08-09T09:16:35.920-04:002012-08-09T09:16:35.920-04:00This is really good advice. I was a huge creep in ...This is really good advice. I was a huge creep in my teen years, I'm a lot better now. I used to be very mentally ill as well though, I was very very depressed and so lonely and it was the only way that I thought that I could show affection. Not that I'm excusing my behaviour at all. I was terrible to the girl I was in love with but I definitely grew up. And in case anyone was assuming things, I'm a girl, girls can be creepy too. She was pretty messed up towards me in a lot of ways, though I think that if I was less creepy than she probably wouldn't have been so messed up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-90861701200713214822012-05-24T10:01:31.441-04:002012-05-24T10:01:31.441-04:00"But what if people think you're a creep,..."But what if people think you're a creep, and you don't deserve it? I don't think the answer is to tell them that they're being wrong and unfair--you can't argue with a feeling, and trying to debate a person into not being afraid of you is kind of creepy in itself."<br /><br />and then<br /><br />"4) Don't get angry or resentful."<br /><br />I can see what you did there... You can't debate a person into not getting angry :)LaduLasernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-90847512721629379552011-10-03T03:09:02.668-04:002011-10-03T03:09:02.668-04:00revisiting this one, because I had an experience t...revisiting this one, because I had an experience tonight that I don't normally have - being creeped out (and made a little afraid) by a guy hitting on me.<br /><br />So I'm walking to the store to buy soda. It's about 1 am; this is a pretty standard thing that I do. (I'm a night owl, I live in a decent neighborhood, etc.) To get to the store, I walk past a bar/restaurant with a lot of outdoor seating. It's a nice place; sometimes if I don't have anything else to do, I'll stop in and have a beer if I'm walking past, but tonight I just wanted to get my Diet Coke and go home.<br /><br />Guy starts yelling "Hey, beautiful!" I didn't turn around, because frankly, that's not something people say to me too often. Eventually, I realized he meant me. When I turned, he shouted out, "Can I buy you a shot?" <br /><br />And... I blushed, giggled, gave him a smile and a wave and called back "No thanks, I'm good," and kept walking, feeling a little flattered.<br /><br />And if it had ended there, it would have been great. It was a compliment; albeit a clumsy one, but hell, he was obviously drunk, I'm not gonna take offense at that. And I certainly wasn't rejecting him as a person or anything; I just had an errand to run and a project to get back to at my house, and I didn't really have time to hang out at the bar.<br /><br />And then he kept asking. <br /><br />After my third (still polite and cheerful) No Thank You, he started shouting at me. "Oh, come on! Why the hell not? Damn, I'm just trying to be generous!" As I got further from the bar, the words became harder to make out, but the general theme was how unappreciative women in general can be. Possibly in less polite terms, but frankly at that point I was actively attempting to move out of earshot, so I can't say for sure.<br /><br />And that, my friends, is how you cross the line from "poorly-timed and executed, but sweet nonetheless" into "fucking creepy."<br /><br />(I'm ashamed to say I crossed on the other side of the street on the way back. It's not that I had any <i>physical</i> fear of him - worst case scenario, I can totally take a drunk dude - but I'm shy and socially awkward, and I just didn't want to have to deal with him again. And I kinda hated him for that: turning one of my favorite things - walking alone at night, in the cool October air - into something that made me nervous and uncomfortable.)Kristycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13321532023627519016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21430577171784935502011-09-19T23:04:04.958-04:002011-09-19T23:04:04.958-04:00-Only talking to people I wanted to bang, and igno...-Only talking to people I wanted to bang, and ignoring others (people really notice this) <br /><br /><br />THIS. Dear god, a thousand times THIS. I find this the most disturbing of all creepery. <br /><br />Also, Anonymous? If you can't put your name to it, you, too, are creepy. Holly started out this post by saying she used to do all these things. I hardly think this was a "you guys suck" post.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04610123185235641411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-33968280916504633352011-07-24T12:49:07.016-04:002011-07-24T12:49:07.016-04:00People who are lucky enough to believe that good p...People who are lucky enough to believe that good people always get their sexual needs met and that bad people/bad behaviors are punished by a lack of sex say things like:<br /><br />"If your approach is goal-oriented to the point of thinking of desirable partners as vending machines and sex as something they will give you if you put in the correct amount of change, you are going to "fail" a hell of a lot more than you "succeed"" Really? Think about someone with a really high partner count, like 60 people before their 30th birthday. They certainly treated people like they were just there for sex and were able to attract lots of partners. I'm not trying to shame people with a high partner count or those who enjoy having sex for the sake of having sex since it's common enough for someone to be in a relationship just for sex.<br /><br />and<br /><br />"And ironically, if you do everything on Holly's list only because you think it'll get you laid, you're still creepy! " No, doing these things, increasing your confidence and strengthening a few other areas will greatly increase your chances of regularly getting laid AND no one can get creeped out by going inside your head to see why you did that. That's you being creeped out by thinking that someone who is bad or unworthy might slip past your creepdar.<br /><br />also<br /><br />"...and above all: Be Yourself!" No, simply being a good person doesn't emit magic rays that make potential romantic partners attracted to you. Some people are so sick of being their naturally dateless selves that they are taking advice from posts like this and radically altering their behavior. I agree with everything else Anon 3:16 said, but "be yourself" obviously doesn't work if you are creepy/awkward and need to improve your skill set to succeed. <br /><br />Some people who are not happy with their sex lives feel that they must be bad people since other people won't have relationships/sex with them. Understanding that the sexual market place just doesn't work that way is a really big step in informed confidence, and that always helps. <br /><br />There is a lot of blame and very little understanding for good people who are using flawed methods in this post. Holly, it feels like you are trying to call out those people and make them feel worse about their actions more than trying to let them know that their behaviors need tweaking so that they can get what they want. For example "Don't try to cheat the system to avoid rejection". Yes, apparently creeps are cheaters as well and everyone can smell a cheater because bad people get what they deserve. No, if there is a system then it certainly doesn't work that way. In "Don't get angry or resentful" you essential tell creepy people to get away from the good, healthy and happy people. How about "go do other things that you can succeed at (with or without others) and remind yourself that the body of your life is worth more than component of your sexual life"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-54915570827890259252011-07-23T09:13:30.676-04:002011-07-23T09:13:30.676-04:00If I were to write the post you cite at the beginn...If I were to write the post you cite at the beginning of this post today, then I would write it differently. I've thought about writing a followup for a long time, but it's a complicated topic and, frankly, I wasn't particularly inspired by responses like Ms. Marcotte's. One thing I will say is that the definition of "creepy behavior is behavior that makes you uncomfortable" has the advantage of being consistent, but the disadvantage of being unclear in terms of the creeper's observed behaviors.<br /><br />In re: the "asking for a kiss" tangent, you might be interested in this comment left by a reader on one of my threads:<br />http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/04/18/guest-post-detrimental-attitudes-of-the-pickup-artist-community/#comment-49381<br /><br />Note that the thread in question is one that focuses on pickup artist theory, and is an uncomfortable and challenging environment for many feminists, sometimes including me. I have drawn some insight from it, however.Clarisse Thornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07552173777924239357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-13713525587183945052011-07-21T23:53:21.051-04:002011-07-21T23:53:21.051-04:00Oh man you tool out my joke about the house of car...Oh man you tool out my joke about the house of cards...O guess it wasn't funny.Black Jesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13689918120461920972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27904854165256119722011-07-20T15:33:59.295-04:002011-07-20T15:33:59.295-04:00Holly, thanks for this article, because I can defi...Holly, thanks for this article, because I can definitely see myself in danger of falling into a couple of those points.<br /><br />The biggest thing I'm not sure how to work out boundaries on is the fact that I am attracted to or would be willing to play with pretty much everyone I'm friends with (there are a few exceptions, but not *that* many). I see them doing interesting things or talk to them about mutual sexual interests, and start thinking things like "man, maybe we could do that together? It would be hot and awesome! Win for everyone!" But I realize that being friends with me does not sign you up for sexual advances, and so I'm not sure how to (or if I even should) pursue those trains without stepping on toes or making friends uncomfortable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28798917728809643662011-07-20T10:20:01.720-04:002011-07-20T10:20:01.720-04:00Mary, I believe the band was Van Halen, and the de...Mary, I believe the band was Van Halen, and the demand was for the brown M&Ms to be removed. And it's an awesome example. I've tried explaining to a guy before why I didn't feel safe with men who made inappropriate sexist remarks, and he didn't seem to get it. I think I'll use Van Halen the next time :-)ABnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-1023803912095261352011-07-19T22:34:19.838-04:002011-07-19T22:34:19.838-04:00As a follow-up to Emily H.:
There's an old an...As a follow-up to Emily H.:<br /><br />There's an old anecdote about a band - I don't remember the name and I'm fudging the details, but bear with me here. Basically, they were known for making silly, prima donna-esque demands when they were on tour. For example, they might insist that there be a bowl of only blue M&M's backstage. If they got there and it wasn't there - or if there was even one non-blue M&M in it - they would leave and refuse to play.<br /><br />Later, however, in an interview they explained why. See, they used a lot of special effects in their shows, and some of them could be dangerous if done wrong. They rarely had time to doublecheck everything when they got there, so they were basically trusting the people who were setting up the show to follow their instructions and do it right. This was kind of a big deal, because if they didn't follow the exacting specifications, bad things could happen - think fires, explosions, heavy things falling on people's heads, etc. So things like the blue M&M's got snuck into the contracts and instructions. Like a canary in a mine, they were early warning signs. If there were no blue M&M's backstage, it meant the people organizing the show hadn't read the instructions carefully. If it had M&M's of other colors in it, it meant they were sloppy in following the instructions. Maybe they cut corners, maybe they assumed they knew what was important and what wasn't - and cutting those corners or making those assumptions could be dangerous when it came to things other than backstage snacks. So the band wouldn't go on stage. They didn't know for sure that the stage itself was unsafe, but given the sloppiness in fulfilling other instructions, they didn't want to risk it.<br /><br />For me, and probably many others, certain basic hygiene practices and social skills are my blue M&M's. Now, I'm a D&D-playing, boffer-larping geek, and so are most of my friends, so it's not like my standards are impossibly high. But there are some very, very basic things that I expect from anyone trying to be friendly to me (keep the body odor down to a dull roar, don't pick your nose and eat it in front of me, don't stand two inches in front of my face and talk at me, don't tell me everything I say or think is stupid [unless you really think that, but in that case what you're doing is called "starting a fight," not "flirting"] - basic stuff.) If you can't pull those off, I start to wonder if you've got the rest of your shit together. You make me nervous, not because picking your nose = rapist, but because you are obviously not used to socializing with humans, and I can't help but wonder what ELSE you may think is ok that really, really isn't.<br /><br />So that's why I'm perfectly ok with "learn social skills" and "brush your teeth" being included on a list of how not to be creepy.Kristycathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13321532023627519016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-25416077442018584532011-07-19T20:10:08.142-04:002011-07-19T20:10:08.142-04:00All I have to say is in this link here.All I have to say is in <a href="http://stfufetish.tumblr.com/post/7796403492/someone-please-think-of-the-wankers" rel="nofollow">this link here</a>.Miss Maggie Mayhemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04158535570216538391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21343026640453877622011-07-19T13:06:43.113-04:002011-07-19T13:06:43.113-04:00Hey, Holly, did you see this yet? Maggie Mayhem wr...Hey, Holly, did you see this yet? Maggie Mayhem wrote an article recently encouraging people to stand up to <a href="http://missmaggiemayhem.com/2011/07/18/the-creepy-naked-guy-in-the-dungeon/#comments" rel="nofollow">that creepy guy in the BDSM dungeon</a> and the very first comment was basically "saying any behavior is creepy is ableist!" Even when she provided an example of a dude not just being awkward, but doing something that was a health risk.Molly Renhttp://molly-ren.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-32744796066105403722011-07-18T16:30:03.890-04:002011-07-18T16:30:03.890-04:00So I enjoyed reading this article, and I like the ...So I enjoyed reading this article, and I like the points you made about "creeps." My girlfriend has a tendency to do things she believes make her a social butterfly, but which I would view as "creepy." To the point where I have several friends that no longer hang out with me because of my girlfriend.<br /><br />But I would also take it a bit further to say that even non-sexual things can make you creepy. I usually associate it with making the people around you uncomfortable to a strong degree. I don't care about what other people think normally, but making others around you very uncomfortable I consider rude.<br /><br />Sitting in an eating establishment's public area talking very loudly with your friends about your private life and trying to draw strangers into your conversations by asking about their private lives or opinions on yours, asking other people about their food, asking if you can try their food, offering to let them have some of yours, all of these things tend to make the average person who is just reading a book and eating their lunch very uncomfortable. And worse is not being able to read the signs that they are creeped out. Or the tendency to break personal space boundaries in these situations.<br /><br />I was actually getting her to calm down a bit around people she doesn't know until she got a new "best friend" she just met, who does it even worse. Now she's convinced its ok again because they do it together. =/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-70116321764468168922011-07-18T10:50:02.717-04:002011-07-18T10:50:02.717-04:00I like Clarisse's article a lot, and I think s...I like Clarisse's article a lot, and I think she makes mostly valid points - though when it comes to discussing sex and sexuality, I think there is tremendous variability in what is "creepy" or "appropriate" to talk about, depending on your social circle. And I think that as Holly points out, attempting to not make people feel creeped out--i.e. threatened--is a good thing.<br /><br />I don't think a social norm/rule is inherently a bad thing. I wish we (generalization all-of-humanity "we") were better at recognizing and critically evaluating social rules, but they aren't all bad.<br /><br />If you show a lack of respect for personal boundaries and space - especially after I have asked you once to please not lean that closely towards my face - I am going to mentally file you away as a person I don't want to ever be alone with.<br /><br />As for ableism...well, it is tricky. But I don't think that someone's lack of ability to pick up on social cues excuses them from being considered creepy. I recognize that it is probably a lot harder for those people, and I wish we lived in a world where someone could say "I have trouble with social cues, please be direct and tell me if I'm bothering you" without having to worry about stigma. But as Holly as said, I still don't know if you're cornering me because you're being awkward or because you're being threatening, and I'm not willing to just assume the former.theLaplaceDemonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-10542138769495722832011-07-17T21:13:35.663-04:002011-07-17T21:13:35.663-04:00This is a bit of a derail, but you are missing the...This is a bit of a derail, but you are missing the point of Clarisse Thorn's article, just like Marcotte did. On top of that Marcotte also accused her of being brainwashed through the patriarchy. This is incredible rude even more if you keep in mind that Clarisse is into BDSM and exactly the same accusation was and still is made from radical feminist against women who like BDSM.<br /><br />Clarisse wrote a thoughtful article. If you reread it you will notice that it's less about the word creep itself than about the perception of male sexuality in our culture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-49365335182173365452011-07-17T19:57:19.828-04:002011-07-17T19:57:19.828-04:00"something one person can get", instead ..."something one person can get", instead of "something that two people can do together"<br /><br />*or, you know, three. Or four or five or whatever. :)Cakenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-81858995016969014212011-07-17T19:31:21.136-04:002011-07-17T19:31:21.136-04:00It depends on if you view the brushing teeth issue...It depends on if you view the brushing teeth issue as<br />- an example of disregard to the rules of polite society<br />or <br />- as a random example of "this guy is so unattractive he shouldn't be legally allowed to ask me out." <br /><br />That said, I admit I've been "guilty" of #1,#2,#4 and #6, and I'd like to thank Holly for spelling this out so clearly.DFLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-16610411595128915312011-07-17T18:59:25.236-04:002011-07-17T18:59:25.236-04:00Asking for a kiss can be made incredibly hot, no? ...Asking for a kiss can be made incredibly hot, no? I'm picturing it a few different ways and it's a win-win: If you totally misread the vibe (it happens) and they DON'T want to kiss you, then it's a hell of a lot better to get a no or brush-off to a question than a face-turn rejection or worse. If they DO want to kiss you, asking the question in a nice seductive tone ramps up the tension and excitement. And there are a lot of ways it can be done. The classic, "May I kiss you?" or "Do you want to kiss me?" or how about: "I've been thinking about kissing you - would you like that?" Whew, hot! It's not just me, right?chinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-64613959841524040662011-07-17T18:04:05.524-04:002011-07-17T18:04:05.524-04:00"'Bad breath is unappealing" I'l..."'Bad breath is unappealing" I'll accept, but 'bad breath makes people worry you'll rape them' not so much, and that's the point of this list, right?.... We're getting away from the definition of creepy that Holly proposed"<br /><br />I dunno -- is there *no* connection between obvious violations of hygiene expectations, and other forms of "creepiness"? A person who goes out to mack on girls with obviously unbrushed teeth and BO-smelling clothes doesn't necessarily make you go "OMG how rapey." But it does suggest a worrisome disregard on that person's part to whether they are actually appealing or attractive, when attracting and appealing to people is supposedly what they're trying to do. They're willing to subject their interlocutors to mouth stank, said interlocutors feel pressure to be polite and pretend nothing's amiss. Are the hypothetical non-brushers oblivious to the impression they make? Do they just not care that the people they're hitting on are grossed out? What other social unpleasantness are they unlikely to commit -- will they buttonhole you and subject you to a conversation that bores you to tears?<br /><br />The line about "brush your teeth" was probably part joke, but there is a common thread, in the idea of "if you're trying to attract people, don't ignore their wishes."Emily H.http://ihatenyt.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89397475407521128842011-07-17T15:16:18.301-04:002011-07-17T15:16:18.301-04:00*Waves hand* I would love it if someone asked to k...*Waves hand* I would <i>love</i> it if someone asked to kiss me instead of just doing it. So respectful! It doesn't happen much, though, mostly because I'm too busy making the first move, myself. :Dperversecowgirlhttp://www.perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-65214466170190102512011-07-17T15:13:44.268-04:002011-07-17T15:13:44.268-04:00Personally, I assumed #7 was a joke-- "bad br...Personally, I assumed #7 was a joke-- "bad breath is unappealing" I'll accept, but "bad breath makes people worry you'll rape them" not so much, and that's the point of this list, right? Part of the problem here is that we're getting away from the definition of creepy that Holly proposed-- "when you feel unsafe and uncomfortable in a sexual way" and sliding back into defining creepy as "anything that's outside your preferred set of social norms". It's true that you can't just tell people to trust you, but I think it's possible to avoid making people feel *unsafe*-- to comply with rules 2 through 5-- without being social easily and often a la rules 1 and 6. You don't have to be charming and outgoing and have lots of friends to respect people's boundaries. Rules 1, 6, and 7 don't fit with the others.Mintynoreply@blogger.com