tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post6093764238101584142..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Bottom skills.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89698595676781096002013-11-03T12:41:26.532-05:002013-11-03T12:41:26.532-05:00Hi, like the person above me, I have very little k...Hi, like the person above me, I have very little knowledge about BDSM, but a lot of it seems like something I would enjoy. The only issue is that I have a pretty low pain threshold, and the idea of being hit really turns me off. Is there a way to engage in BDSM without including hitting?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89826641789713957212013-08-12T02:48:10.720-04:002013-08-12T02:48:10.720-04:00Hey all, you seem like a great group of people. I ...Hey all, you seem like a great group of people. I am brand-spanking new to the BDSM scene, and by that I mean I've only fantasized about bottoming. I'm also pretty young (over 18, don't worry), so I am nervous about just getting introduced to the scene. This helped a lot in getting a sense of what bottoming is all about. But what I was wonderig was: what kind of social scenes are there for people who want to just talk and figure out where they stand and don't want to jump right in?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-49286945419717776712013-03-29T21:04:51.859-04:002013-03-29T21:04:51.859-04:00As the partner of someone who requires far more af...As the partner of someone who requires far more aftercare after topping than I do after bottoming--<i>thank you</i> for bringing up top drop. It's really hard to find information or even acknowledgement of it, which makes it feel like much more of a Big Scary Thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-761126241843477572013-03-26T20:15:30.357-04:002013-03-26T20:15:30.357-04:00Thank you for this.
I have a lot of the same prob...Thank you for this.<br /><br />I have a lot of the same problems with S/M 101 books and classes, although I'm coming at it from a different perspective. As a dominant top, I find that those resources that make bottoming look like "something a beanbag could do" make topping look like it's entirely about facilitating the bottom's experience, rather than *having* an experience, yourself.<br /><br />Thank you for talking about processing the experience and giving good feedback. That, right there, is the difference between a "do-me" bottom and a "collaborative" bottom. The latter means the top "gets something back" for the all energy she's putting out through managing the scene and operating the tools, and it matters a LOT. It means the difference between spending a lot of energy on, well, a bean bag... and creating something awesome with another person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-9144648161188493362013-03-22T20:55:55.749-04:002013-03-22T20:55:55.749-04:00So.... I'm hearing about masochists who aren&#...So.... I'm hearing about masochists who aren't submissive? Who don't want to bottom but think they should? Whatever words you want to use, my point is fully made. If you invited definitions of this lexicon and got people to vote on their correct usage, it'd be a pretty mess. I've had people say to me "I'm a bottom but I'm not submissive" "I'm submissive but not a masochist" "I'm a masochist but not submissive" and so on. But if you really want to communicate what you're into, you need to give a more complex explanation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-13320022144490669992013-03-22T07:01:08.659-04:002013-03-22T07:01:08.659-04:00Thank you very much for the discussion here. It wa...Thank you very much for the discussion here. It was so odd trying to find a word for what I enjoy the most. I'm not submissive, but I don't like to go against what the bottom wants as mercilessly as the doms I talked with seem to play. <br />I love when it becomes a dance, yes, one leads, but the other follows eagerly and enjoys it just as much. I was beginning to doubt that I had any place in the D/s dynamic at all. Before this discussion here it had always been painted as black and white, either or, nothing in between. Now it looks a bit more like a spectrum where I could call myself "a domme, mostly service oriented, who enjoys to bottom on occasion". Much more comfortable this way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-72559721964562257262013-03-20T20:18:58.011-04:002013-03-20T20:18:58.011-04:00"I still think I'm hearing about masochis..."I still think I'm hearing about masochists who aren't bottoms at all"<br />"Bottom" isn't a preference, it's a role. The word you want here is "submissive".Indigonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-78112961159135126272013-03-18T22:32:52.419-04:002013-03-18T22:32:52.419-04:00Awesome post. Thank you!Awesome post. Thank you!SM Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02991536645592985414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28785992438872728082013-03-18T16:07:55.231-04:002013-03-18T16:07:55.231-04:00Anon #1 from above ...when I meant that med studen...Anon #1 from above ...when I meant that med students practice on each other, I was including basic skills you can practice on healthy people, like learning blood draws, taking vitals and doing physical exams. If you don't practice them on each other (which is fairly standard here) the point is that you do try to practice, right? Moving slowly up the chain towards an actual person who could be harmed by your actions. So, whether it's oranges, cadavers, professional patients you need to examine and diagnose... as interns following someone around who can say "listen to this" and "what do you think that is" without you hurting anyone. That's kinda my point. Because, as in BDSM, there are physicians who never learned to do a pelvic exam on an actual person who wasn't unconscious. And, as in BDSM, the lack of having that learning feedback makes them painfully inept.<br />Having read the other comments on topping from the bottom experiences, I still think I'm hearing about masochists who aren't bottoms at all, but don't know how to say what they want to have happen. I have always thought that perhaps these are 2 different dimensions being conflated into one confusing mess.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7794172330924227382013-03-18T15:52:24.875-04:002013-03-18T15:52:24.875-04:00Consent is the difference between BDSM and abuse. ...Consent is the difference between BDSM and abuse. Between eating a meal and being force fed. Between going on a journey and being exiled. Between sex and rape. Training for a marathon and being sent on a death march. <br />Consent is the big brick wall between these experiences and remembering that can really help quiet any reverberations between them. Because yes, refugees probably do pick up travel skills, endurance runners experience some similar physiological changes as forced labourers, and having some basic knowledge of how reproduction works will at least answer some of questions someone might have relating to both rape and sex. The surface similarities are just the surface.<br />One small addendum here - BDSM that you didn't consent to is abuse. Just because you asked for a spanking doesn't mean that you get your hair pulled, for example. One reason I object to the 'BDSM is abuse' concept is that it silences anyone into kink who complains about their boundaries being violated. You never lose your right to give or withdraw your consent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-87263256169843300662013-03-18T12:01:52.109-04:002013-03-18T12:01:52.109-04:00What Jamie said, pretty much. For me "sub sp...What Jamie said, pretty much. For me "sub space" is a very detached state of euphoria followed by a very "whee I'm flying" drug-like high. It's sometimes hard to know exactly what's going on with my body or to communicate clearly when I'm in that space. (Not impossible, and I can still tell when I'm being hurt and still safeword, but I'm definitely in a state of impaired awareness.)<br /><br />I remember once asking Rowdy to drive me home from a party because I was still out of it, and as luck would have it, we got pulled over by the cops. I tried very hard to look normal while my head was going "woooo flyyyyinnng" and I think I failed completely. But the cop just figured Rowdy was my designated driver (and in a sense he was), so that ended okay. Damn good thing I didn't try to drive, though.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7647926684529440242013-03-18T11:53:14.318-04:002013-03-18T11:53:14.318-04:00Well, immobilized is simple: I might be tied up.
...Well, immobilized is simple: I might be tied up.<br /><br />La-la land is the issue of going into serious sub space. Which didn't clarify really either I'm sure. I don't want to assume my experience is universal, as this can describe any number of altered states. For me this is a point at which I get giggly and out of it due to endorphin production.<br /><br />I may be spacey and even unfit to drive for an hour or more.Jamienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-2067258984057955242013-03-18T05:08:03.840-04:002013-03-18T05:08:03.840-04:00Hi, I'm fairly new to BDSM but what do you mea...Hi, I'm fairly new to BDSM but what do you mean by this? "because bottoms might be immobilized (or go off into la-la land)"kazernielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08201045732289753771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-66490362038227452432013-03-17T01:35:54.008-04:002013-03-17T01:35:54.008-04:00Arabic spam? But I thought pork was haraam.Arabic spam? But I thought pork was haraam.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-23177745182962332232013-03-16T12:45:24.236-04:002013-03-16T12:45:24.236-04:00It is a real thing, though I think 'topping fr...It is a real thing, though I think 'topping from the bottom' is a bad way to phrase it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-69025102028321870972013-03-14T18:33:58.190-04:002013-03-14T18:33:58.190-04:00صور حب
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"If as a bottom, you're not ...@Pervygirl: <br /><i>"If as a bottom, you're not getting what you want, learn to negotiate BEFORE a scene, learn to work with your top's energy instead of nagging (within reason of e.g. safety), and stop playing with someone if their style doesn't suit your needs."</i><br /><br />Thing is, this is exactly what I'm saying is a domist, unequal standard. It says that the top's desire/energy is absolute, while bottoms have to do their best to work around it, instead of the two being equal. <br /><br /><i>"I had an experienced sub who was already in-protocol-subbing to me make full-on scene suggestions when we were already playing."</i><br /><br />Here's the thing. If in a scene a top suddenly starts feeling that they would really like thing X (say, they realize they have a really strong desire to have the bottom say "please may I have another", or have the bottom's hands tied together) then as long as this doesn't violate any boundaries, they can do this. If a bottom starts feeling like they would really like thing X (say to have their hands tied together, or to have the top say "the rules are in place to be obeyed"), the only way they can get this is to ask the top. So saying that them asking the top is not OK is putting the two sets of desires on unequal footing, with the top's desires being more important. And yes, some people have a kink specifically for that, but not everyone, and enforcing this on people without that preference is a problem.<br /><br />Now, boundaries obviously take precedence over desires. So, for instance, I have a boundary that people may not do things to me that they have not asked me about first. So someone playing with me couldn't just do something spontaneously, unless they asked first. And if this makes me incompatible with someone, then we shouldn't play together. <br /><br />Similarly, if a top doesn't like getting suggestions in scene, that's also a boundary, and they can express it and if it's an incompatibility with someone, then that top and that someone also shouldn't play together. But being incompatible with someone doesn't make their preferences/desires wrong - it just makes them better suited for someone else. <br /><br />I've definitely heard a lot of Dommes I know complaining about men who just want to have their fantasies fulfilled, and don't care about the Domme's at all. But, I think that's basically the same problem in the opposite direction - the issue is that both people's desires are equally important, and people (on either side) acting entitled and like their desires are more important by default is bad. <br /><br />@Indigo: Totally agreed, whoot!<br /><br />@Cliff:<br /><i>"I'm also sure this is often used as a bugaboo to make bottoms say "I've set too many boundaries today, I don't get to set any more" to themselves."</i><br /><br />As someone who has experienced exactly this - yeah. That's why I'm so mad about it, really - because it does harm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-79762593713948502232013-03-12T00:57:38.437-04:002013-03-12T00:57:38.437-04:00What the person above me said.
I have been abused...What the person above me said.<br /><br />I have been abused. I have also been in BDSM situations where I purposely asked my partner to act verbally and physically abusive towards me, and where uttering a single word could stop everything and make said "abuse" devolve into cuddling and reassurance. They're not the same. At all.<br /><br />I'm terribly sorry that you've been triggered and I hope you are feeling alright now, but this is actually... pretty tame for a BDSM blog, to be honest. Maybe it's not a good idea for you to be on a blog that is clearly labeled to contain BDSM talk when mentions of any activity that bears any surface resemblance to abuse is triggering to you? The stuff you pulled out was pretty easy to scroll past, as well, if you're just here for the more feminism-oriented bits and you'd rather skip the kink.<br /><br />Again, it's terrible to be triggered. I get that. I am triggered by some relatively banal things, and I once had a freakout at a friend because they used the phrase "now now kids" and that phrase contains a lot of bad, bad stuff for me. But the fact that I was triggered, while awful, wasn't their fault; they didn't know and there was nothing they could've done differently not knowing.<br /><br />Which brings me to why I take issue with this comment; I'm unsure what you want Cliff to do here. It's a little unreasonable to ask someone not to talk about BDSM/how they experience BDSM on a BDSM blog because it triggers you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30753442521462503632013-03-11T16:55:36.827-04:002013-03-11T16:55:36.827-04:00The difference between BDSM and abuse is consent, ...The difference between BDSM and abuse is consent, mainly.<br /><br />I've been abused, and I've been the bottom in a BDSM scene, and the two bear no relation to each other whatsoever. I can't speak for other masochists, but I don't experience pain as pleasure; I experience it as 'good pain'. My boyfriend throwing me across the room because I woke him up? Bad pain. Not necessarily because it hurt any more than a heavy scene, but because it was scary and out of control and I didn't know if he was going to stop, if he was going to sit there and scream at me, if he was going to stomp into the kitchen and grab a knife.<br /><br />A scene might hurt just as much, physically speaking, but it's my decision to take the pain, and if I can't or don't want to, I say the word and it stops. <i>That's</i> the difference.aebhelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-58830405628288190472013-03-11T14:38:28.757-04:002013-03-11T14:38:28.757-04:00My objection to saying "don't top from th...My objection to saying "don't top from the bottom" is that it's often presented as a moral absolute instead of a preference. Yes, lots of tops - me included, when I top - don't like to have the bottom choosing every element of the scene and directing it while it's in progress. This preference is neither more nor less legitimate than that of the bottoms who want to be hit in exactly the right spot. I also loathe the phrases "true dom/me" and "real submissive", for similar reasons. Indigonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-63937738585483042292013-03-11T12:54:00.334-04:002013-03-11T12:54:00.334-04:00Med students don't practice on each other! I m...Med students don't practice on each other! I mean, things like taking vital signs they will, but they spend most of their time in teaching hospitals caring for actual patients. (Under supervision, obviously.) There's a limit to what you can practice on people who aren't actually ill, and actual patient interaction is being stressed more and more because of how often diseases present in non-"textbook" ways and how complicated real people's medical status can be.<br /><br />I'm a nursing student right now and we practice most procedures on mannequins, then on patients. (With an instructor over our shoulder.)<br /><br />I know I'm nitpicking a metaphor here, but I think it applies; guidance from a good top will help your skills a lot more than bottoming to them.<br /><br />On the "topping from the bottom" thing... I think it's one of those things that's not all one way or the other. I don't want to say bottoms bear no responsibility for the top's experience, but... it's their ass on the line, often literally, so you can't ever say "you've set too many boundaries today, sorry, you don't get to set any more." <br /><br />I think a lot of "topping from the bottom" is just failure to let a really bad scene or pairing end. I'd stop the scene, not to punish the other partner, but just because it's clearly not working and we need to get our expectations aligned--if possible--before going again.<br /><br />Maybe there are bottoms out there who love screwing with tops by being super duper fussy and demanding, but:<br />1) I'm sure there are tops who are into that, so it's a matter of "find someone who's into that and negotiate that this is your bottom persona" not "silence yourself."<br />2) I'm also sure this is often used as a bugaboo to make bottoms say "I've set too many boundaries today, I don't get to set any more" to themselves.<br /><br />So. I basically agree with you. (And I think in my first comment I was giving a little too much credence to the bugaboo, in retrospect.) Except about the med students.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-85545939036655316452013-03-11T11:45:34.964-04:002013-03-11T11:45:34.964-04:00For an inexperienced kinkster, or for someone who ...For an inexperienced kinkster, or for someone who wants to get into edge play (e.g. needles), it's a REALLY good idea to know what's going on. It doesn't have to be a full-on scene, or a scene with submissiveness as well as bottoming, or even a scene with someone else (e.g. you can try that TENS unit on yourself). <br /><br />But if you don't know what you're dishing out, you don't know what you're doing... and yes, sometimes it's impossible to know -- when I'm doing "mean" things to anatomy I don't have, I check in frequently. For that matter, doing particularly mean things to any anatomy requires a realization that different people feel things differently, which I suppose is the flipside -- no pun intended. ...I'm not a masochist, but I can be a heavy bottom when I'm "just trying" something, and so I am occasionally surprised when someone reacts strongly to something I consider not-that-painful. But still... good to know what you're dishing out.<br /><br />I will make exceptions for experienced heavy bottoms/masochists who say they want something that I'm unwilling to experience myself. I guess I just talked myself into basically agreeing with everyone... just don't like the "dom dudes" who have no idea what their bottoms are really taking. <br /><br />Also, agree that it's so AWESOME to push someone to a place you know and have them smile at you through the pain... ;-)Pervygirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03832534164039059476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-18402540651072010832013-03-11T11:30:50.489-04:002013-03-11T11:30:50.489-04:00Nope. There are most certainly bottoms who top-fro...Nope. There are most certainly bottoms who top-from-the-bottom. and not surprisingly, they tend to be men. <br /><br />As someone who likes to bliss out and be spontaneous as a top, it's f--king annoying. <br /><br />I am not talking about, "whoops, I have an old shoulder injury, forgot to tell you, please don't do that," or, "ma'am, that other sub over there is very cute, maybe we could play with her later?" ...I had an experienced sub who was already in-protocol-subbing to me make full-on scene suggestions when we were already playing. Yeesh. I've stopped playing with him (though it took a few instances of this highly annoying behaviour... as he is spectacularly good looking and very fun the rest of time), because his topping-from-the-bottom ruins the scene for me. <br /><br />If as a bottom, you're not getting what you want, learn to negotiate BEFORE a scene, learn to work with your top's energy instead of nagging (within reason of e.g. safety), and stop playing with someone if their style doesn't suit your needs. <br /><br />...<br />That being said, I check in with new play partners frequently if they aren't already giving me feedback, especially women, and especially-especially new-to-the-kink-community women, who may because of socialization not express how they really feel about a scene. Pervygirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03832534164039059476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-49665747893539659752013-03-11T05:30:16.184-04:002013-03-11T05:30:16.184-04:00Can I say that as a service top, mapping out the s...Can I say that as a service top, mapping out the scene with the guidance and feedback from the bottom is absolutely what gets me high? It's essential. I can only play once or twice with people who are still struggling to articulate their bottoming or masochistic desires before I start to feel uncomfortable about my ability to reliably and safely run a scene. A good bottom makes you feel like a genius top. I've always hated how BDSM people don't respect it and I think it ties into misogyny and the view that someone who is receptive must also be passive.<br />To the original poster who wants to "prevent topping from the bottom" - this is based in your failure to negotiate. People who aren't in power are reduced to nagging and begging. You are not meeting your masochist's needs, so either listen to them better or don't play with them. Asking for what you want is not topping from the bottom. I sometimes encounter masochists who are also tops - now THEY top from the bottom. Sometimes if they're new at things, they are a bit confused about how to ask for this, but I it's a sexual preference, not a mistake. It's also uncommon, so if you have this problem a lot, it's probably you. From the way you describe it, you're equating topping with 'why don't I get to do whatever I want?' for which I'd reply 'because that's assault.'<br />To comments below about not doing to others what you haven't tried for yourself, I've always interpreted that to mean that you should learn on yourself first instead of inflicting your mistakes on others. Medical students practice on each other, tattoo artists are their own first customers. It's a common learning tool, especially when testing physical skills and stresses. If you haven't bothered to try out that whip on your own forearm, at the very least, or sat for half an hour in bondage, how will you know what happens on even a minimal physical basis when you do that? You can learn from a book or a workshop, but learning by doing is solid. Plus, it deepens your smile when you get to watch someone who actually enjoys that kind of thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com