tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post6093953409696841515..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Not just for kids anymore.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger152125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-79590180509247220632012-12-02T00:03:47.743-05:002012-12-02T00:03:47.743-05:00So, I'm late to the party, but... Yes. This. T...So, I'm late to the party, but... Yes. This. Thank you.<br /><br />The little tidbit about teenagers doing everything "clandestinely and with no support system" rang especially true for me. Clandestine in my case meant "nobody, not even my best friend, can know we're doing this," and no support system meant "nobody I trust has ever talked to me about what sex is and what it means, nor what the potential pitfalls may be,"... and that all culminated in years of abusive, consensual-rape-type relationships.<br /><br />Which is a large part of what frustrates me about all the hyperbole surrounding the hot-button issues like birth control, women's rights, and marriage equality. Strip away all the "But think of the children!!" arguments, and the agenda seems to boil down to: keep people uninformed about their sexuality so the people in power can continue to exert control over it.<br /><br />And really, if that's the case - why not borrow a page from history's book, and require all literature on said subjects to be published in Latin? =/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-80730550916274704212012-10-25T10:02:31.036-04:002012-10-25T10:02:31.036-04:00I had my first vaginal intercourse (haven't tr...I had my first vaginal intercourse (haven't tried anal), with my first boyfriend, who had also never done it before, when we were both 21 and unmarried (we've broken up now, are still good friends and are still both unmarried), we were in love, we made sure I had an orgasm first and used plenty of lube, it wasn't mindblowing physically but it was a very enjoyable emotional experience and neither of us had any pain from it (and we're both autistic/aspergers too), he was gentle, didn't try and make it really athletic and hard-thrusty. Admittedly it probably also helped that he's not really big in the trouser department (seriously, if you've got a small penis, be happy for any partner you have who's first you are!), maybe there would have been pain if he was bigger, but I would never want to trade it for a different first time experience, it was lovely.<br /><br />My two cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-86478058364031320702012-10-11T21:27:46.131-04:002012-10-11T21:27:46.131-04:00As far as near-ideal situations go...
I was 16-is...As far as near-ideal situations go...<br /><br />I was 16-ish when I fell in love, properly, the first time. Sex never entered into it, so it may not count for your purposes, though we did kiss (when I was 19, I think). It was IMO one of the most positive relationships I've had, speaking not even in terms of romantic relationships but just... relationships. The guy in question is still one of my best friends. He was in his mid-20s, and was seriously worried about the age difference, which is one reason things never got too far (also, there was distance involved, also... long story). I still feel that was pretty near the best introductory relationship I could've had, though. He was always super-respectful, and mature enough to provide, to some extent, a sense of perspective I lacked. And -I- was mature enough to think seriously about things like safety and my own inexperience, and make sure I knew him pretty well before getting into potentially problematic situations... which, given what he was like, were not -actually- problematic. <br /><br />Long-term, we worked better as friends. But... I was definitely a teenager. And IMO, it was definitely a very positive experience. Which is one reason I get frustrated by "You can't have a relationship with someone much older!" Sure you can. It just depends on the circumstances, like any other relationship. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-8522010064568509692012-08-10T12:14:32.383-04:002012-08-10T12:14:32.383-04:00.laughs.
Just to toss in a sleeping arrangement ....laughs. <br /><br />Just to toss in a sleeping arrangement story... After my husband and I were married, we hadn't quite moved into our house. I stayed with my grandmother, who wouldn't allow my husband to stay overnight. Nope, not even if we were married!Sagenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26316897085013099232012-08-10T10:38:54.029-04:002012-08-10T10:38:54.029-04:00Not entirely similar but when I was 17 I had a sho...Not entirely similar but when I was 17 I had a short relationship with a man who was 46. He made it pretty damn clear it was fun and not going to last, although I was so in love with him I a. ignored that and b. binge-ate a lot when he left.<br />However - he introduced me to some of my favourite books, music, and kink. He is a great and a very generous, kind, caring friend - last year he paid $1000 for me to fly across the country to go to a funeral.<br />I am in my thirties now, been married for over a decade, separated, had kids and I still love him to bits and consider him a really, really good friend. I don't think he exploited me. <br />I made it really damn obvious in actual, consensual words that I was sooooo up for it. <br />All my friends were in their 20s-to-40s so I was somewhat outside the usual social circles of a 17 year old. His 'usual' type were women either older or within 5 years of his age.<br />Anyway I think I would likely be horrified in a hypocritical way if a young female relative started seeing someone 29 years older, but what the hell. People make their choices and I am still proud to call him my friend.<br /><br />Two things - One -I am tired and emotional so apologies for my rambling incoherence.<br />Two - Thanks for a wonderful blog, Cliff Pervocracy. I am so pleased to have found it. It's fabulously enlightening and just plain great.Ms Vnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-58582158224535297002012-07-26T08:07:15.203-04:002012-07-26T08:07:15.203-04:00It seems like a lot of people lose their virginity...It seems like a lot of people lose their virginity on those swiss language school trips. ^^piranhasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-42117216392135392422012-07-26T07:59:13.402-04:002012-07-26T07:59:13.402-04:00This goes to Cliff's account of their teen rel...This goes to Cliff's account of their teen relationship with an adult: I think your point here is that an adult should know better than to pull shit like that, and they do it on purpose because they know they can get away with it. I had a boyfriend two years younger than me who pulled a variety of shit which I didn't protest as much as I would have now - that was because it was I who was inexperienced. The fact that he was younger than me, does it give him an excuse or something? He had more experience with relationships than me. But maybe his young age can account for some of his immaturity.<br /><br />My point is - if you don't have good boundaries, which I did not, (and inexperience , young age may be a reason for that, but in my case I also was stupid because I really wanted to have teh boyfriends no matter what), then if you meet an asshole,no matter their age, bad relationship happens. Is that maybe what you could get out of your experence, instead of, 'teenage-adult relationships are bad'. I mean, did you put up with those things because he was older and knew better, or because you didn't? <br /><br />Essentially, this sentence: 'the fact that I was 15 let him get away with all kinds of things'<br />So, if it was a person near your age pulling this shit, you would've told them to fuck off back then? And maybe this friend of yours would have been able to pull those things on other people close to his age that had a boundary issue.<br /><br />I am genuinely interested in your answer. I sometimes wonder ,if things had been different, if I would have been able to build healthy relationship boundaries without them getting torn up so badly with my first one - just by being with good people who respected me instead and friends who gave me non-shitty advice.piranhasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-54313332502377537382012-07-17T16:03:23.205-04:002012-07-17T16:03:23.205-04:00I think 19 is almost 20. When someone is in colle...I think 19 is almost 20. When someone is in college and has a car and a job, that's very different from being a teenager in high school. So if you're both happy, you have my stamp of approval at least based on what you've said here.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-60999489285161511882012-07-16T19:53:37.578-04:002012-07-16T19:53:37.578-04:00Its interesting that the drive/can't drive dyn...Its interesting that the drive/can't drive dynamic comes up a few times in this discussion. I'm 29, my partner is 19. For medical reasons she can drive and I can't. We both work the same job, we are both attending the same school, (I'm a grad student, she's an undergrad, different programs) and we started dating after a year of continuously running into each other at games, events and similar social activities for our respective departments. Does the car thing close the virtual age gap?<br />I don't think our power dynamic is particularly off kilter but privilege is the hardest to see when you're the one that has it. We both, oddly enough, read your blog and I hope I'm being sufficiently respectful, kind and communicative that there are no particular power disparities or other dominance issues. Now you have me worried, and there's no way to error check. Anyone I mention this relationship to either by knee jerk response says "age is just a number," gives me a nudge and a wink and a clap on the back, "or looks at me like I'm a pedo. Not a single human being I have spoken to seems to actually engage in thought about the potential power dynamic issues and how one can best work on them (actually repair a stair if there is in fact one missing rather than work around). <br />Finding out if something is wrong using my judgment is biased. If what you are saying is true then all of the communication and respect in the world invalidates her judgment because there is too great a power gap. I didn't know personhood could be revoked in certain social contexts but that seems to be the thrust of what is being said. Even if its not meant that way, the idea of an unequal balance of power giving a viewpoint less authority has merit so lets take it as read that you're right and she doesn't get a vote either as to what is or is not acceptable. As previously mentioned I don't get one, too biased. Where can I go to get data that is helpful and is actually the result of someone insightful and empathic thinking about the circumstances in specifically and not merely going by rote response. <br />I've met and spoken with her parents, we both know and hang out with all of each others' friends and did before we dated. There are so many confusing metrics here. For example out relationship hits every one of your green flags you mentioned (both she and I need a fair amount of emergency room hand holding, that medical thing again). If I somehow came to the conclusion that I was in some way measurably causing harm I'd be out in a flash. Herein lies the problem. How is what I'm saying in any way different from what every other older cis male with a younger partner says? I have heard the things I'm now saying said by people who were real scumbags, including "this case is different" but then again Stalin ate sugar too. Just because scumbags say something doesn't mean it can't ever be right. Help? Fearing that you are a monster is emotionally exhausting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-46639859435500275472012-07-13T01:48:57.671-04:002012-07-13T01:48:57.671-04:00As a teenager (for less than a year longer), THANK...As a teenager (for less than a year longer), THANK YOU for speaking up. Ageism is rampant in American society in many ways. Unlike other forms of oppression though, ageism is something you grow out of being the victim of, so it seems like most people stop giving a shit about it once they turn 18.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-52383042894455332812012-07-08T00:48:19.561-04:002012-07-08T00:48:19.561-04:00I do remember a certain 17-yo I discussed classica...I do remember a certain 17-yo I discussed classical poetry with... (we were not in a relationship, I was engaged).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11062265106693557987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-86094859214500968812012-07-08T00:44:50.967-04:002012-07-08T00:44:50.967-04:00Not to mention that "innocence-fetishizing&qu...Not to mention that "innocence-fetishizing" is not even in the near field as some of that other stuff you listed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11062265106693557987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-34965258965998915372012-07-08T00:43:56.251-04:002012-07-08T00:43:56.251-04:00I can find this 'mythical' perfect relatio...I can find this 'mythical' perfect relationship easily: Madison and Cathy Floyd. She dumped him, too.<br /><br />Not to mention that "innocence-fetishizing" is not even in the near field as some of those other things you listed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11062265106693557987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-1268961340430009592012-07-05T00:24:01.775-04:002012-07-05T00:24:01.775-04:00I'll put my two cents in for Australia...
I m...I'll put my two cents in for Australia...<br /><br />I magically missed out on any good sex education. In year 6 mix year 7 class, public school, apparently they watched a birthing video but I never did. I'm guessing sex ed was involved.<br />I then moved to a different suburb and school with another combined class and had no sex ed.<br />For high school I was in a private Christian college where I only ever got the science end of how genitals, periods and babies work, and the 'sex is between you and god' crap. Plus the year group's health classes were constantly changing so it only ever covered drugs and the like.<br /><br />Oh sure, condoms I knew about, I knew about the pill later when I got prescribed it for acne, but when I first got sexually involved, that was the first time I saw a condom. Didn't know how to effectively put one on until I read the packet pamphlet. Never got any sex ed from my parents and even when they tried to they backed off with a 'oh, but I'm sure I don't need to tell you'. And they only suggested it after I was active for a while.<br /><br />But I still got chewed out for not using a condom but being on the pill first time I had sex. OH YEAH. I trusted my partner when he said he'd never had sex so I didn't think STDs would be a problem.<br /><br />Either way, now that I know have the means (the internet) I have taught myself and taken an active role in my sex ed. Knowledge is power right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27538588774396080732012-06-25T15:39:11.092-04:002012-06-25T15:39:11.092-04:00@Not Me: Very much so. I once fell really hard for...@Not Me: Very much so. I once fell really hard for a guy who was literally three times my age, and I think it must have crossed his mind that if he'd really wanted to he could have gotten me into bed, and that he was at least a little tempted (we never openly spoke about any of this). But I was really worried about the possibility of hurting him, of a scandal (whether deserved by either of us or not) threatening his marriage, his job, etc., and he was not the kind of guy to take advantage of me. Instead he found ways in which he could be appropriately supportive of my emotional needs, including helping me work through some weird shit with my parents that was probably at the root of a lot of this. He's always stood out in my mind as one of the kindest and most honorable men I've ever known.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27936743953611531672012-06-25T15:06:56.353-04:002012-06-25T15:06:56.353-04:00Thank you for putting into words my endless frustr...Thank you for putting into words my endless frustration with the "But What About The Children" argument. If allowed to go on about how much I hate the "But What About The Children" argument with regards to sex, I would surely break the comment form's character limit. <br /><br />But, anyway, and maybe I'm one of the few who can say this, but I have something of a different situation. I'm in my mid-20s and am not having sex (for logistical reasons and even if I was single, I wouldn't fuck anyone I knew on account of having grown up with half of them and that would put me in a weird headspace). It is assumed, therefore, that knowledge of sex is beyond my reach and that I am a "good girl" (which would be another character limit-breaking rant) who would blush and turn away if someone says "penis" in my vicinity, as though I was a shy, blushing virgin of fourteen. Which gripes my cookies for a few reasons. One, even when I was fourteen, I was, while a physical virgin, not "pure" in the sense that no sexual thought crossed my mind. And two, the idea that I'm supposed to remain sexually clueless until I'm married, at which time, the wedding ring will transfer all sexual knowledge to me (which explains why wedding rings can be so expensive. I'd rather have a ring that translated all languages, allowed flight, or shoots lasers), creeps me right out for lack of a better word. I grew up in a subculture that really believed like this, too (Pentecostal Christian, Assemblies of God flavor). That until I received the Wedding Band of Power, I was to remain clueless and (more than) a little afraid of sex, well into my adult years, unless I found my soul mate at eighteen. But my rant about my ire with regards to encouraging virginity until marriage leading to wildly short engagements and people marrying <i>just</i> so that they can finally have sex would also break the comment form. <br /><br />Sorry for getting ranty all up in the comments. <br /><br />--RubyfruitRubyfruithttp://tetsuwanjordi.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-81209367122251731132012-06-24T18:43:46.561-04:002012-06-24T18:43:46.561-04:00Well, yeah, but isn't one aspect of "grea...Well, yeah, but isn't one aspect of "greater than average level of maturity and responsibility" being aware of the power differential and trying not to abuse it?Not Menoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89867023625793634862012-06-24T18:33:05.104-04:002012-06-24T18:33:05.104-04:00In the U.S. at least, there are no laws against &q...In the U.S. at least, there are no laws against "fornication" or "sodomy" (and if any still exist on the books, then they've been rendered unconstitutional since Lawrence vs. Texas, 2003). In many other western countries, this was never illegal to begin with.<br /><br />As for marriage, the age of marriage is the same as the age of consent, plus or minus a few years (varying considerably depending on region; on the occasions where it's lower, there's an exception where married people are considered to be "of consent" regardless of their actual age.) Regardless of what one makes of that, marriage is a form of legal contract, and it says nothing about one's right to have a relationship - indeed, in most places you can get married solely for the legal benefits, to someone you don't know well and don't have much to do with, though that's kind of stupid.(Though on rare occasions people have exploited this for tax reasons.)Not Menoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-31480598825670001732012-06-23T18:41:48.863-04:002012-06-23T18:41:48.863-04:00Yah my frist partner was skeptical that I was a vi...Yah my frist partner was skeptical that I was a virgin because I did not "bleed." Talk about awkward.Lainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-12504928037780628382012-06-23T18:37:51.200-04:002012-06-23T18:37:51.200-04:00I do think it depends on the individual. I am a sh...I do think it depends on the individual. I am a shy, self-conscious person, so even though my mum was always very open and even kept condoms in the house when I was a teenager in case I ever needed them, I never did. I lived in a small town and I would have been way too shy/embarrassed to have someone over when my family knew about it, even if they didn't actually notice or care. Even now, as an adult, I can't stand to have sex in my mum's house. So I think it just depends on the person, too.Lainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-32067115725863878702012-06-23T18:17:49.199-04:002012-06-23T18:17:49.199-04:00Good for you !Good for you !Lainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-29493346894744129482012-06-23T18:16:30.226-04:002012-06-23T18:16:30.226-04:00Cliff/Mythago: this is what also bothers me about ...Cliff/Mythago: this is what also bothers me about these types of relationships. It's not that the teenager is incapable or that it wouldn't even be enjoyable for them potentially, it's that I can't understand why someone so much older would be interested in someone developmentally much younger than they are. Granted, I am slightly biased because I have almost always preferred my partners to be more mature, however I find it difficult not to feel that the older person simply IS attracted to some sort of innocence/dependence dynamic.<br /><br />I have known relationships with large age gaps to work out well, but not involving high-school or younger aged people. Especially if there is a junior-high schooler with someone over 18....having worked with lots of junior high schoolers and knowing their levels of maturity, even at their most mature, I would be extremely uncomfortable with that.Lainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-74132529281544960522012-06-23T17:52:48.910-04:002012-06-23T17:52:48.910-04:00The whole "parents need to worry about their ...The whole "parents need to worry about their daughters more because they're the ones who could come home pregnant" is soooo irritating to me. Firstly, would you be any less upset if you found out your son impregnated a girl?? I dislike how it's just assumed the the girl will have to take responsibility. Of course, it has more of an effect perhaps on her physically and somewhat more emotionally/hormonally BUT I don't like putting all the responsibility of "pregnancy" and all the "need for protection" on the shoulders of young girls.Lainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-14670426513500058902012-06-23T17:35:42.808-04:002012-06-23T17:35:42.808-04:00I also think that sometimes people comply to easil...I also think that sometimes people comply to easily with such wishes rather than "rock the boat." And I'm guilty of it, too. But maybe at some point you just need to say "Look mom and dad, we need to talk." And tell them we're well-adjusted, educated adults and that we're insulted and hurt by their lack of trust in our judgement. <br /><br />They'll either compromise or not, and at that point you can decide whether you're going to put up with it or not. We ARE adults. We don't have to do something just because our parents tell us to anymore.Sohaliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02719479845270583111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-8161411125617413292012-06-23T14:54:26.420-04:002012-06-23T14:54:26.420-04:00Thanks, f. But to clarify, I also didn't say a...Thanks, f. But to clarify, I also didn't say anything about other people's reactions or lack of same. I was talking about MY feelings about not having sufficient privacy. While I'm sure those feelings were affected by my upbringing in various ways, I also think they were partly down to my temperament and would have been that way to some extent regardless. It was just much, much easier to save that part of my life for when I was in college. I will admit that I sometimes wish I had been even more adventurous before I was married, but I've never yet seen reason to regret that I didn't have sex during high school.Irenenoreply@blogger.com