tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post6918109939215781034..comments2024-02-23T03:38:53.049-05:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Consent culture.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger212125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89979852806743830182014-04-27T10:02:31.665-04:002014-04-27T10:02:31.665-04:00Thank you so much for this! As someone who was bro...Thank you so much for this! As someone who was brought up as female (though I identify as male), the sheer number of times I have been forced to hug someone by an adult - even if they know it makes me very uncomfortable - is enough to make me remember the rage. "You don't want to be RUDE, do you?" "But think of how your uncle/aunt/grandma/cousin must feel!" Great way to teach kids (young female-assigned kids, really) that their comfort is not as important as not offending other people. Sheesh. I wish more people could internalise a directive of "do not assume that other people will be fine with you do". As someone who is a finicky eater, does not like being touched, and has an unusual phobia, I hate it when people assume that something they do to me is going to be completely fine. Sometimes it's really not. It's human nature to enforce social norms, unfortunately, and I think a lot of people are probably too thick to learn this, but I can dream. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-88222195028213390372014-04-14T01:07:36.116-04:002014-04-14T01:07:36.116-04:00Yeah, but, come on. If someone asks me to do somet...Yeah, but, come on. If someone asks me to do something, I can't just SAY NO to them. Some of us just can't do that.<br />John Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17813593224618572349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-38193975652087896322014-03-29T07:40:02.962-04:002014-03-29T07:40:02.962-04:00Yes! Thank you for articulating what I couldn'...Yes! Thank you for articulating what I couldn't find the words to phrase! Between my aversion to certain textures and my hyper-sensitivity to and dislike of a few unfortunately common flavors, I find myself sending back food unfortunately frequently. Why are servers so poorly informed as to the potentially allergy inducing contents of the things they serve? And what is so difficult to understand about "thoroughly scrambled eggs-NO WHITES LEFT!"ShinyCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06306860676459396717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7388679189042162272014-03-20T02:25:32.583-04:002014-03-20T02:25:32.583-04:00"Women-identified people" "man-iden..."Women-identified people" "man-identified people", what is this nonsense? Can't you simply say "women" and "men"? If this is your attempt to be politically correct about people who were not born with the sex that matches their gender identity let me say that this is actually offensive because you're still singling out the fact that they're not cisgender and can't be bothered to use terms that that doesn't unnecessarily highlight this difference. They're all women and men, period. Enough with the labels that don't do anything other than reinforce stereotypes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-64302595940955616472014-03-11T09:58:42.511-04:002014-03-11T09:58:42.511-04:00not to mention people with restricted diets who mi...not to mention people with restricted diets who might not feel like giving you every detail of their health history right there at the table. (I have IBS.)notemilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01314181692027225820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-86755838448784781372014-01-29T10:46:54.155-05:002014-01-29T10:46:54.155-05:00Hugely late, but...
The size and social-authority...Hugely late, but...<br /><br /><i>The size and social-authority advantages an adult has over kids shouldn't be used to force them to play games or accept hugs or go down the big slide. </i><br /><br />My grandfather used to grab me and rub my head, while making baby-noises, while I flailed around and tried to get away. I didn't like it, and never did.<br /><br />One time, he did it, and I told my parents that I didn't like it, and they told me to go <i>tell</i> him that I didn't like it...whereupon he promptly did it again. <br /><br />And you know what? I think that everyone thought that it was cute and funny that I was being grabbed and noogied <i>when I clearly didn't want to be</i>, which is just...how is that funny?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-37851997225333924542014-01-27T14:14:52.576-05:002014-01-27T14:14:52.576-05:00I appreciate your example of 'persuasion',...I appreciate your example of 'persuasion', though I would call that negotiation. Persuasion is "the act of causing (someone) to do something through reasoning or argument." Negotiation is "trying to find a way over or through (an obstacle or difficult path)." They weren't negotiating about whether sex was wanted - they were negotiating about whether there was time for their already consensual sex. I don't think you can persuade or negotiate unless consent is already there, or it will become rapey. For instance, "do you wanna fuck this morning honey?" "I'm really not in the mood this morning" "but I won't make you breakfast unless we do" or "but it'll make you feel so much better" that would be negotiating / persuading about sex, and that's just not okay... it wouldn't happen except in an abusive relationship or a 'date' rape type of situation... as far as I can tell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-20004413510969047622013-06-03T11:19:00.947-04:002013-06-03T11:19:00.947-04:00The final paragraphs about consent in every day li...The final paragraphs about consent in every day life make so much sense to me and really put into words what I felt already, so nice to hear someone say these things and give me more confidence. It is something that I will definitely be putting into practice so thank you very muchAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-53171291413610588362013-03-02T11:52:11.611-05:002013-03-02T11:52:11.611-05:00Yeah... only abusive family I know thinks they'...Yeah... only abusive family I know thinks they're 'good parents.' So loving! Kids need discipline! Discipline occasionally results in a trip to the ER, but that's okay. It was necessary, bad parenting to do otherwise. If you'd seen the kid misbehave you'd have done the same thing. <br /><br />I was blessed with parents who literally never raised a hand to me. They gave options, all of the time. If I did not want to eat my vegetables, I didn't, provided I tasted them. If I didn't want to hug Aunt Ethel, that's fine. If I wanted to go read in a corner at a family party and refuse to play with the other kids, someone set up the corner for me. Soft drinks on demand as and when available, 24/7, against all logic or common sense.<br /><br /> I slacked on homework, had candy before dinner, headed out to play in the snow in a t-shirt and backed out of commitments. When I got older, no-one forbade me from drinking, having sex, or going out to late night parties.<br /><br /> Everything got carefully explained to me, and I got the best of advice, plenty of talks about what I should or should not have done, but very very few prohibitions. <br /><br />My siblings were discussing the family rules and we came up with 'no stuff that will endanger yourself and others, or hurt others', 'don't bother animals', 'go to school', 'taste your food', and 'don't jump off the roof' as the only real hard-and-fast ones. <br /><br />It backfired spectacularly (or alternately worked perfectly) when I never rebelled, because, why? Once I got older I ate copious vegetables, drank only water, played with the younger kids, hugged everyone... You learn self-regulation. <br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-42712805597565816052013-02-16T09:52:07.346-05:002013-02-16T09:52:07.346-05:00"Beyond what's necessary for their health..."Beyond what's necessary for their health and education (and even that touches iffy territory), I don't believe in doing this to kids, either. The size and social-authority advantages an adult has over kids shouldn't be used to force them to play games or accept hugs or go down the big slide. That sets a bad, scary precedent about the sort of thing it's okay to use your advantages over someone for."<br /><br />The philosophy of Unschooling takes this and goes further - into that iffy territory as you call it. In Unschooling, it is not okay to force your child to go to school, to learn anything, or to do anything at all. An attitude of partnership is taken up with the child, and THEY are given the choices about what to do with their lives.<br /><br />Unschooling works; children don't end up killing themselves or completely destroying their education - quite the opposite. I recommend you look into it if you're interested. (Try "radical unschooling" as well as it separates some of the wannabes from the real stuff).Sophiahttp://www.sophiagubb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-87401233077864314662013-01-22T15:04:09.647-05:002013-01-22T15:04:09.647-05:00I fucking love this blog.I fucking love this blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-73792893583361500682012-11-20T06:05:04.403-05:002012-11-20T06:05:04.403-05:00>"Kirk laid Spock tenderly across the scie...>"Kirk laid Spock tenderly across the science console and whispered hoarsely in the Vulcan's pointed ear, 'Do you want this? Do you want me inside you?'"<br /><br />I freaking love this blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-76636043504399038022012-10-05T13:47:36.405-04:002012-10-05T13:47:36.405-04:00I might be pummeled for saying this, but I'm o...I might be pummeled for saying this, but I'm one of those horridly un-enlightened females. I do agree in theory with everything that you've said - although, as an educator and mom, unfortunately sometimes we all (including children) need to do things that we aren't thrilled about- teaching responsibility and concern for others is important.<br /><br />The other thing that I'll admit that I take issue with is *constant* permission asking. That drives me personally a bit nuts. If that is something that someone needs that is fine, and I do agree that a culture of consent would be lovely.<br /><br />However, is consent within a committed relationship *always* verbal? Can partners "sense" or communicate non-verbally? Is there something always inherently wrong with committed partners making a light advance, but not going forward if the response isn't open?<br /><br />I don't know... for me if my partner (or even my friends) felt that they had to ask me *every* single time for everything, I would feel hurt. Sometimes I'm at a place where I *can't* ask for what I want and I feel shame in verbally admitting to what I need. It is not creepy for me when a person who truly knows me, spontaneously gives me the hug that they know that I need. I don't feel offended in the least.<br /><br />I am however, completely with you re: the non-con's even in fiction (I've never been comfortable with that), and with dampening the idea that manipulating or pressuring people into intimacy (regardless of gender) is ok at all.tmanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-59707586443681016452012-09-30T08:04:36.268-04:002012-09-30T08:04:36.268-04:00"If someone doesn't want to go to a party..."If someone doesn't want to go to a party, try a new food, get up and dance, make small talk at the lunchtable--that's their right. Stop the "aww c'mon" and "just this once" and the games where you playfully force someone to play along. Accept that no means no--all the time."<br /><br />This is so confusing. I agree with this 100% but recently I posted on r/twoxchromosomes about something like this and got told the opposite. I said that my friends keep asking me to do things with them that I have no interest in doing, such as camping or skiing. I'm not sporty or outdoorsy. I've learnt by now what kind of things I'm interested in. My friends kind of roll their eyes when I refuse to do these things or say "come on just try it!" Going by what you said, they should accept my no, and not press the issue. But everyone was commenting saying that my friends "are probably getting sick of me saying no all the time" and that I'm a bad friend if I only do things I want to do and not try the things they like. It's not like that - it's not like they're always doing what I want to do. We just do things we ALL want to do. If I wanted to do something and they didn't, they would say no too (a good example is I've asked one to come clubbing and it's always a very firm "no, not interested" and I respect that). When they go skiing I'll still go up to the lodge and hang out with them, but just read or play in the snow instead of skiing. Anyway, everyone in 2X was basically telling me to try new things and stop saying no :(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-11216462028549568472012-09-04T18:28:58.062-04:002012-09-04T18:28:58.062-04:00Disappointment only exists when expectations do. L...Disappointment only exists when expectations do. Lose the expectations and you're no longer disappointed when you don't get something you want. Wanting and expecting are very different. I think it's more important to teach people how to live from a place of love and appreciation than one of fear and expectation. Regardless of what you expect, sometimes you'll get what you want and other times not. When you stop expecting particular outcomes, you stop being disappointed -and- you start viewing every good thing your given as a gift and not an expectation met. Makes it that much easier to appreciate more in life :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-29398098201927328722012-09-01T20:29:58.103-04:002012-09-01T20:29:58.103-04:00The way I avoid creepyness in getting people's...The way I avoid creepyness in getting people's numbers is that i give them my number, and allow them to decide whether or not to call/text me and give me their number. YAY FOR NON CREEPYNESSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-52868461695666920212012-08-31T04:05:14.652-04:002012-08-31T04:05:14.652-04:00This was an interesting article and good comments ...This was an interesting article and good comments on that really, but i have to also partly agree with the last poster here about vocalizing it every time. There are persons who dont wanna speak all the time and really want to do that without words at some point and i found that this is possible, but very hard and it takes a long time. acutally it also requires talking, but it doesnt require talking all the time.<br /><br />one thing about kids though. I am not so sure if it is really a life skill to learn to suffer through something. I wouldnt put it that simply, or maybe the example is weird. I dont know a lot of kids who are very excited about going to a wedding really. Of course its interesting but its also kids. I dont see why we have to take playfulness away from them just to satisfy our needs for show-off. I can not agree on that and will not do it like that with my daughter. When that means, that we have to leave a wedding or people hate us, then so be it. Of course there are actions a kid can do that will never be ok, not on a wedding, nor anywhere. Those are actions though that should be solved through talk mainly. Saying "stop" in that case also means teaching the kid that stop means stop, but not stop for no reason, but that you are gonna talk about it. The more often you say "but not now" the easier the kid will disagree because kids just want to talk in the moment and not later. It actually also makes sense, because I still prefer that. One can always talk later, but the moment does not come back.<br />Sandro and his furious mindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15609277125400874367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30757734509853976222012-08-03T14:40:28.828-04:002012-08-03T14:40:28.828-04:00I kind of disagree with this post, but it's a ...I kind of disagree with this post, but it's a thing of context, because consent is always important.<br /><br />First of all: in the causal/hookup scene, yes, I agree 100%. However, I'm an introvert to the point where that does not work for me. I am not comfortable vocalizing my desires/initiating physical contact even within a friendly context; that's just who I am. It's easier for me to get miffed and say 'no' and stop what's going on than it is for me to admit to wanting physical contact or initiate it. The act of agreeing to a hug, showing emotional need, requires a greater comfort level than actually receiving a hug for me. I feel like but advocating this vocal direct consent for everyone and everything you're ignoring that admitting a need can be more difficult for some people. I am uncomfortable admitting a need and I feel like your system would be forcing that on me before I'm emotionally ready. Again, this is a different system than the random hook-ups, but different people will find it easier to articulate different things and that's okay. In a long term relationship, it takes knowing whether your partner is more comfortable vocalizing consent or dissent.<br /><br />Consent is important, but it's not as simple as "everyone should vocalize explicit consent at all times," that doesn't work for everyone and it shouldn't have to. Some people find it easier to push someone away instead of pulling them closer and that takes really knowing your partner. Explicit vocal agreement is a good default, but it's not the only way a relationship can work.<br /><br />I also disagree with your assessment of kids. There are social obligations you don't understand when you're 4. That's not to say that you need to force kids for everything, but there are times when little kids require a little push and there are times when they just need to suck things up. If you're meeting someone from a different culture that has the kiss on the cheek, sometimes you have to deal with that even if you're not someone who enjoys it. As a 4 year-old, you frequently don't have enough self-control and understanding to put up with temporary, minor discomfort even when you should. It's like forcing a little kid to behave at a wedding: they may not want to behave, but they may want to stay for the wedding, and it's a life skill to learn when you can suffer through something and when you have to leave or stop something. At some point you should be able to make that determination for yourself, but its something you must learn. This can be abused like anything else., but that doesn't mean it's inherently bad or even undesirable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-29305185606978787602012-07-23T18:48:50.488-04:002012-07-23T18:48:50.488-04:00Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZ...Relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYUAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-13380904711495117482012-06-24T18:29:28.618-04:002012-06-24T18:29:28.618-04:00Spirk plus consent equals instant wettieSpirk plus consent equals instant wettieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-42976411555766194972012-05-29T11:52:28.933-04:002012-05-29T11:52:28.933-04:00I read it differently, as a future prediction - Ro...I read it differently, as a future prediction - Rob and Josie have already talked about the possibility that they'll want to have sex at Jesse's party, and they already agreed that they want to do so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39133736383341865872012-03-26T08:40:45.529-04:002012-03-26T08:40:45.529-04:00I really like that idea! Actually, that sounds a l...I really like that idea! Actually, that sounds a lot more in line with the sort of consent I am used to. The first person who kissed me asked if he could and I actually found it to be kind of a turn off =/ which probably isn't good (although to be honest I wasn't very attracted to him anyway). <br />However, one really good way to avoid the whole 'awkward asking' thing that many people have brought up, would be to express the desire to have sex, or what have you. How about a sexy sort of statement like, "I think we should go back to my place, have a drink and maybe fool around a bit." and then either directly asking the person, "What do you think?" or obviously looking at them like you are looking for a reply. This gives them a chance and a space to agree or disagree - or even make an alternative suggestion! - without the whole sort of awkwardness some people find in the asking, and also in the answering!<br />If I were the person being asked in the above situation, for instance, I would feel a lot more comfortable stating what I wanted to do than if they had just asked me, do you want to have sex? and I'd have to say directly no. <br />I guess it's small fries, but it's just another way to make sure the person wants what you want. Express you want - does the other person agree! Great! They want something different? Okay, well they haven't told you some glaring NO so you can negotiate whatever it is you would both like to do. <br />-DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-34260174156068531612012-03-25T03:19:13.520-04:002012-03-25T03:19:13.520-04:00"I conservatively estimate that about three q..."I conservatively estimate that about three quarters of the female population are significantly more likely to be enthusiastic about having sex if they aren't asked first. This a highly undesirable state of affairs for all parties concerned, but pretending it isn't true doesn't help anyone." <br /><br />Did you do a study? It just seems strange to state something like that as fact when you obviously have no way of knowing. It also sounds like you are blaming women for not being more assertive. And it should be pointed out that it is not only untrue that ALL women are attracted to confidence and authority, not all women are even attracted to men. <br /><br />"So when someone is sexually direct - assumes that the response will be positive without having to ask - that is inevitably attractive." So untrue! There is nothing inevitable about that except that it leads to putting pressure on someone to do something that they may not want to do, and you won't know because you didn't ask first.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-22736419844974858062012-03-11T21:45:40.448-04:002012-03-11T21:45:40.448-04:00Exactly.
People consent to sex for reasons othe...Exactly. <br /><br />People consent to sex for reasons other than desire. So long as that consent was freely given (not coerced), who cares why they are doing it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-17230119029195039722012-03-11T21:42:04.121-04:002012-03-11T21:42:04.121-04:00We can do better than not-rape, of course. But th...We can do better than not-rape, of course. But that doesn't mean all less than perfect sex should be criminalized.<br /><br />Let's try not to conflate bad sex and rape, please. Consent is all that's needed for sex to not be a crime, and it should remain that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com