tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post7036468676903579751..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Seven Points On Rape, Prevention, and Blame.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-67019983395690720642012-08-12T01:01:22.107-04:002012-08-12T01:01:22.107-04:00I'm a little upset that this post was entirely...I'm a little upset that this post was entirely about trying to STOP people from having the conversation about who is to blame, and to START having a conversation about how we can start thinking about sexuality and rape in a way that is productive and leads to more respect for both women and men. Rowdy alluded to it, but everyone in this thread was distracted by the blame game.<br /><br />I recently spent some time (for the first time in my life) with some recent college grads who had been in fraternities/sororities (I went to a college without greek life), and I was appalled at the overt sexism that was totally acceptable to everyone. I was insulted by things that men said, and insulted that women thought the things they said were acceptable, or even funny. The conclusion that I drew was not that men should stop being sexist, or that women should stop accepting the sexism, but that we all have to be aware of the things we are doing to reinforce the sexual inequalities that pervade our society. <br /><br />Instead of pointing fingers, use this as an opportunity to reflect on whether you have been sexist in any way, and to think about ways in which you can be less sexist. People must be open minded if the sexual culture of our society is to change. It must be INAPPROPRIATE for a man to make unwanted moves toward a women. Whoever's fault it is, it is today largely still seen as appropriate. <br /><br />-JacobAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-67611824959697744942012-01-16T17:26:09.442-05:002012-01-16T17:26:09.442-05:00Anon - Of course not! If someone chooses a partner...<i>Anon - Of course not! If someone chooses a partner who wears a sign around their neck reading "I WILL RAPE YOU," the victim was clearly acting in a reckless and foolhardy manner!</i><br /><br />And then, when a group of male students chant, "No means yes, yes means anal!", and feminists criticize this harmless message, they're weak, humorless, and unfit for the military.<br /><br />http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon0526hm.html<br /><br />What are the odds that, if we were to warn women to be careful of these guys, because they're likely to, um...ignore the wishes of women who don't want to have sex with them, that we're man-haters (and anti-sex)? Even though it's as close as you can get to wearing an "I WILL RAPE YOU" sign around their neck?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-84980422062234998842011-03-09T12:54:27.222-05:002011-03-09T12:54:27.222-05:00When people talk about "personal responsibili...When people talk about "personal responsibility" and rape victims, it's like they're saying, "If you are in any way complicit in your own rape, you must accept that you are not entitled to justice or sympathy from others, and if you discuss this rape with others, you are making them uncomfortable and placing an undue burden of guilt upon them, which is why they will not empathize with you and may, in fact, turn against you. Even though the determination of complicity has more to do with perception than reality, and is based on false causal relationships (i.e. women who wear short skirts are not any more likely to be raped.)" <br /><br />"If you thought you knew someone really good and trusted him thus making a mistake of judgement, you are responsible for this mistake. No one else is."<br /><br />So, if you continue to be friends with someone who has been accused of rape, would that be a stupid mistake on your part? If you're a woman, and you come to the incorrect conclusion that he ISN'T a rapist, and he rapes you, was she stupid? Is she responsible? If you're a man, and you continue to trust him, and nothing bad happens to you, was he stupid? Is he responsible?Charlenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-8081007506432873012010-12-17T16:26:46.089-05:002010-12-17T16:26:46.089-05:00The Welsh Assembly Government feel strongly enough...The Welsh Assembly Government feel strongly enough about this to have launched a whole publicity campaign on the issue of victim blame for rape.<br />Take a look and leave a comment.<br /><br />www.stopblame.orgfrogshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09175067068686310631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-41065003542574320552010-11-23T21:59:27.467-05:002010-11-23T21:59:27.467-05:00May I let off steam as a comment here Holly? In t...May I let off steam as a comment here Holly? In the paper today was a story about a bloke who went into a woman's house at midnight and tried to rape her while she slept. The next whole column of the article was a cop saying 'women should lock their doors and windows at all times.' The cop is wrong: another twerp did the same thing to me when my doors and windows were locked. He just broke in. (he took a plea bargain and got 12 months suspended). Also, when a rapist reads the cop's comment, he'll think it's OK with the cops, so long as he comes in through an unlocked door. I know this is an old thread, I just wanted to get that off my chest. MagpieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-8654815334787921972010-11-10T04:56:30.582-05:002010-11-10T04:56:30.582-05:00Loved this post and the discussion. I'm usuall...Loved this post and the discussion. I'm usually a lurker, especially for this topic and asshattery such as that one Anonymous ("Choose your friends/lovers/banker better how dare you not know they were going to do bad on you" ...Seriously?!).<br /><br />Just wanted to throw in another tally mark for those who were raped by friends while in sweatpants (knew him 5 years).Leahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09697267464955551031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-35017061279041095872010-11-08T08:02:29.602-05:002010-11-08T08:02:29.602-05:00First off, this post, it is totally wonderful.
Al...First off, this post, it is totally wonderful.<br /><br />Also, I wanted to introduce you to the Best Person You Meet When You Talk About Rape - the clued in survivor of rape, who has thought up some genuine non-insulting prevention strategies for the spotting of people in your life who might be boundary-crossing assholes, and how to, when practicable, practice your ability to enforce emotional boundaries. http://www.fugitivus.net/rape-faq/#comment-6612<br />Not a whiff of victim-blaming - Harriet, who escaped an abusive marriage, has devoted a great deal of time and blogging to explaining her experiences with emotional and sexual abuse and one of the things she emphasises is that a lot of women are taught behaviours by their culture that make it really hard to deal with someone who breaches their boundaries. Any preventative advice she has ever given is suffused with a tone of, "Nothing that happened to you was your fault, and you don't deserve to ever have someone do that to you ever again, and anyone who tries to victim-blame or rape-apologise will feel my wrath. But emotional abuse changes people, and often opens the door for more emotional abuse as your self-esteem and boundaries are eroded, and it's often hard to spot an emotional or physical abuser, so here are some things you can look out for so that you can break that cycle".Graphitenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-70121490653240827462010-11-07T19:40:35.508-05:002010-11-07T19:40:35.508-05:00thanks, Holly.
and i apologize for FEEDING said...thanks, Holly.<br /><br /><br /><br />and i apologize for FEEDING said troll. i know better, i do... just, well, you know.<br /><br /><br />and in case it wasn't clear from me actually participating - i think this post was GOLD, and assholes aside, did some good. some assholes are just assholes. some people are so invested in what the WANT the world to be, they can't see how it actually is. even when hot-sexy-Holly-Pervocracy <i>draws them a map</i>.<br /><br />thank you.denelianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08083149213773118359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-47570326539711538112010-11-06T10:46:47.235-04:002010-11-06T10:46:47.235-04:00Because you seemed unable of conceiving of a rape ...Because you seemed unable of conceiving of a rape scenario where the victim <i>isn't</i> a reckless drunken whore who needs to "take responsibility" for getting herself raped. I have to assume you're just a particularly vicious troll when you're calling out <i>children</i> who get raped.<br /><br />You're talking to real people here, do you know that? You're fucking disgusting.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-51398625664428479182010-11-06T10:02:27.391-04:002010-11-06T10:02:27.391-04:00No it's not your fault.
When I was talking abo...No it's not your fault.<br />When I was talking about a Nigerian money hoax why did not you eagerly assume that I was talking about you and blaming you personally for giving out the credit card info?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-75208733576291146292010-11-06T00:04:49.937-04:002010-11-06T00:04:49.937-04:00hey, Anon three above ["don't take shower...hey, Anon three above ["don't take shower with your stepfather]<br /><br />FUCK YOU. just, seriously. i wasn't *DRUNK* when he raped me, i was thrown into a wall and then beat until i couldn't see straight and then i was raped and i was TWELVE.<br /><br /><br />but, really - if i'd just been less physically advanced, he wouldn't have raped me, so it's *MY* fault for going into puberty at 11, right? and hell, if i hadn't LIVED with the man - if i'd somehow known ahead of time that he was going to beat me and rape me, i could have run away and lived on the streets [to be raped by strangers] so it's *MY* fault for not running away! and, hell, if i hadn't *BELIEVED* him when he said he'd kill me, my mother and my sister, i could have called the cops and *MAYBE* someone would have NOT automatically assumed i was at fault and maybe then he wouldn't have been able to CONTINUE raping me, so it's *MY* fault for being to terrified of the man, right?<br /><br />the two anon BELOW him - thank you. muchly.denelianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08083149213773118359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-38637804006103073932010-11-05T22:13:58.133-04:002010-11-05T22:13:58.133-04:00If only people would USE their God-given psychic m...If only people would USE their God-given psychic mind reading powers, we wouldn't have to deal with all this rape business in the first place! Girls: are they bad at telepathically identifying evildoers or what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-72265052679357928492010-11-05T19:29:16.402-04:002010-11-05T19:29:16.402-04:00Yes, bad things sure do happen to good persons - d...Yes, bad things sure do happen to good persons - do I argue with that?<br />But if good people would start driving under influence, will bad things start happening to them more often?<br />Why "Please don't drive drunk" is a legit advice but something like "Don't take shower drunk with your stepfather" is victim-blasming?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-90270828787075753002010-11-05T19:23:43.426-04:002010-11-05T19:23:43.426-04:00Not making friends at all would be a mistake. Maki...Not making friends at all would be a mistake. Making friends with rapists again and again and again would be a mistake too, it <i>is</i> your choice, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26759396210653506872010-11-05T19:01:44.104-04:002010-11-05T19:01:44.104-04:00I definitely hope that if someone I'm friends ...I definitely hope that if someone I'm friends with ever decides to rape me, I won't learn to not to make the mistake of making friends again. :PSpektrioenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-58452220682890017742010-11-05T15:28:47.203-04:002010-11-05T15:28:47.203-04:00If you thought you knew someone really good and tr...<i>If you thought you knew someone really good and trusted him thus making a mistake of judgement, you are responsible for this mistake. No one else is.</i><br />Um, how about the person who decided to betray your trust and rape you? Can they take just an eensy little bit of the blame?<br /><br />What is the point of "accepting responsibility", seriously? What does that mean? Berating yourself for everything you did wrong? Most victims have that covered just fine on their own. Never trusting anyone again? That's healthy. Acknowledging "yes Internet, technically if I had acted differently I would not have been raped, you are so right Internet, thank you for setting me straight Internet you are sooooo smart"?<br /><br />Rapists don't have "RAPIST" painted on their face. The "error of judgement" involved in trusting a previously kind and normal-seeming person is... what exactly?<br /><br />SOMETIMES BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE. IT IS NOT ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS BECAUSE THE GOOD PERSON WAS SECRETLY STUPID OR BAD. SOMETIMES IT IS JUST A BAD THING HAPPENING TO A GOOD PERSON.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-87185136891386570072010-11-05T15:19:49.783-04:002010-11-05T15:19:49.783-04:00If you thought you knew someone really good and tr...If you thought you knew someone really good and trusted him thus making a mistake of judgement, you <i>are</i> responsible for this mistake. No one else is.<br />Whether it results in money loss, in a car accident - it is resonable, right? No, you are not going to prison asan accomplice, but you accept the responsibility and learn not to make the same mistake. <br />Why this is called "victim blaming" if it resulted in rape?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-69277229967913063382010-11-04T23:42:43.735-04:002010-11-04T23:42:43.735-04:00http://www.antirape.co.zahttp://www.antirape.co.zaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-1836038921285416022010-11-04T22:02:04.670-04:002010-11-04T22:02:04.670-04:00um...
a thing that's hard to avoid, with vict...um...<br /><br />a thing that's hard to avoid, with victim-blaming, is the fact that many people <i>actually blame the victim</i><br /><br />example from my life:<br />my step-father started raping me when i was 12. i don't mean "statutory rape bcuz i was 12 but otherwise i consented" - mean, beat the ever-lovin' FUCK out of me when i resisted.<br /><br />the *whole neighborhood* knew about it.<br />know what they did?<br /><br />they "warned" my mother against leaving me alone with my SF, bcuz "look at her; she might seduce him away from you". they called me "slut", "whore" and "homewreaker" and warned all their friends that i "seduced" my ugly, abusive, mean and OLD step-father, so watch out when i was around.<br />their children spread it around school. the school counselor had me in for a "discussion" on adultry and why it was bad.<br /><br />3 YEARS later, when FINALLY a new principle was in town, he noticed the bruises, the badly-healed broken nose, the limp... all the signs of rape and abuse. he called CPS.<br /><br />3 of my neighbors were charged [dropped, eventually] as accessories - rightly, as knowing about a crime like that and not only not-reporting it, but to an extent <i>covering it up</i> ["we don't want scandel..."] *IS* a crime. but, to this day [20 years later] those neighbors consider me a slutty whore who seduced her mother's husband.<br /><br /><br /><br />why? in my opinion [tempered by YEARS of distance and a TON of psych classes] it was a lot easier to salve their conscious if *I* was the one to blame. they really *DIDN'T* want CPS sniffing around [CPS can be overzealous - if they removed me from the home, would they take THEIR kids, too, for being near such a person?] and... well, to be honest, we're trained to think of women as the REASON for rape. if women didn't "look like that", if women "didn't have all the pussy", etc - there'd be no rape. it's not TRUE, of course - but that's how people are trained to think. after all, Eve ate the fruit first, right? etc...denelianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08083149213773118359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-36512847641514199452010-11-04T18:24:25.213-04:002010-11-04T18:24:25.213-04:00Holly, You mean where I said "Thanks for talk...Holly, You mean where I said "Thanks for talking about this" on a female rape survivor's blog who was defending me from charges of being a rape apologist? You're right that I did totally fail to stand up for women there, but I didn't mean enthusiastic agreement. I'd like to talk to you privately about why I said that and why I didn't post any disagreement, and I'd like to point out that the attitude isn't reflected in my own blog.AndrewVanbergenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923434958244441857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-87841819191421921842010-11-04T16:59:39.532-04:002010-11-04T16:59:39.532-04:00Mousie - On this blog, sure. On misogynist blogs ...Mousie - On this blog, sure. On misogynist blogs where the author posts "women all get hysterical when men make reasonable points" and you reply in enthusiastic agreement... yeah, Mousie, I don't know what the fuck.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-53999521327593393492010-11-04T16:48:23.581-04:002010-11-04T16:48:23.581-04:00Rosie, I've been repeating this a lot recently...Rosie, I've been repeating this a lot recently, so I appreciate the confirmation that I'm repeating the right thing.AndrewVanbergenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923434958244441857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-12299554646724505502010-11-04T15:14:27.997-04:002010-11-04T15:14:27.997-04:00Mousie, I think you've got it there: "in...Mousie, I think you've got it there: "in the common case, the lapse in judgment is not primarily used to avoid prosecuting the guilty; in the rape case, it is." Precisely.<br /><br />Add to that the fact that most "common sense" advice given on "how to avoid getting raped" is ill-informed, misleading, and worse than useless in ACTUALLY avoiding dangerous situations or getting out of them, and you can see why some of us tend to get awfully annoyed when we hear it.Rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-55009995167215686452010-11-04T14:37:04.181-04:002010-11-04T14:37:04.181-04:00Also:
The fact that something is true does not ne...Also:<br /><br />The fact that something is true does not necessarily make it relevant to the discussion or kind to bring up.aebhelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-57324555116190324022010-11-04T14:34:38.948-04:002010-11-04T14:34:38.948-04:00Anonymous(es)-
1. Being frustrated at people who ...Anonymous(es)-<br /><br />1. Being frustrated at people who offer the same useless, insulting advice that you've heard twenty billion times before is not the same as being hysterical. Asking people to respect that someone who has already been the victim of a painful, humiliating, often violent crime does not need a list of all the things she did wrong is called 'having human compassion'.<br /><br />2. The reason it is useless advice is that it presupposes that everyone who is raped was doing something stupid. It's cruel and unnecessary to go on and on about a victim's mistakes even in the event that she did make some (trust me. If a girl did something stupid and was raped, she's already beating herself up about it plenty without any outside input); most of the time, though, it's pointless, because most women are not raped while wandering around drunk in miniskirts at 2AM. Continuing to argue as though that were the reality is...fallacious logic, to say the least. Which doesn't really make the 'me logical, you hysterical' case look too good.aebhelnoreply@blogger.com