tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post7274666896694367081..comments2024-02-23T03:38:53.049-05:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Police action.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-66948386359826601192011-10-17T15:28:16.024-04:002011-10-17T15:28:16.024-04:00It is a frustrating situation, to be forced to cho...It is a frustrating situation, to be forced to choose between your long-term goals and the pursuit of justice :( I was in an anti-sweatshop sit-in some years ago and had to decide between participating in direct action and my philosophy of science final. <br /><br />Later, in response to the sit-in, the school issued a new policy decreeing that all sit-ins must end at 5PM so as not to interfere with the occupiers' academic lives (among other stated reasons). It always seemed odd to me that the university was willing to arrest its students to protect their academics but refused to alter the behaviors that made them consider jeopardizing those academics. <br /><br />At any rate, wedgethrees from OccupyDurham :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-83639107699822497972011-10-16T17:07:41.690-04:002011-10-16T17:07:41.690-04:00The argument that "increasing minimum wage is...The argument that "increasing minimum wage is evil" doesn't hold water for me. First off, if you adjust for inflation, the net value of minimum wage has been steadily decreasing since ~1997. Second, even if the increases didn't exist, companies would prefer illegal immigrants and automated processes anyway, because it nets them more profit and they have more control without pesky labor laws getting in the way. Third, having enough money to meet a minimum standard of living (even one below the poverty line) on a job you are being paid to do isn't entitlement unless you use the absolute strictest sense of the term.<br /><br />Also, while hardly a neutral site, here are various charts and graphs that show why the movement resonates so well with those who actually bother to give a damn.<br /><br />http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10<br /><br />(click on the link below the article)Demiosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-14811341333006381992011-10-16T06:25:49.544-04:002011-10-16T06:25:49.544-04:00It doesn't "build character" to work...It doesn't "build character" to work several jobs and still not have enough food to eat. All that builds is hopelessness, depression, and malnutrition.<br /><br />Character comes from making CHOICES. "Work or starve" is a choice. "Work AND starve" is not. "Fruits and veggies every day" vs. "Ramen noodles every day...and a new pair of nice shoes at the end of the month" is a choice that teaches people how to budget their money; if someone's job can't even pay for rent and food, let alone any luxuries, that person isn't LEARNING anything; they're not building character the way they would if they were sacrificing to get something they want.<br /><br />I have to wonder how Fuzzy knows all these drug addicts and slackers, since zie seems pretty smugly middle-class. Unless zie's actually a welfare case worker, I suspect "I know people like that" actually means "I think I read about people like that in a heavily biased, conservative newspaper once."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-84023868552026137762011-10-15T18:09:01.327-04:002011-10-15T18:09:01.327-04:00And I think people should go hungry. Hardship is a...<i>And I think people should go hungry. Hardship is an annealing process...it tempers people and makes them stronger. You don't know what you can do til you do it---nit because you though it would be cool, but because you had to dig into your gut and find out who and what you really are. </i><br /><br />I <i>know</i> I'm a bit late to the party, but please, go to Sarajevo and scream that from the main square.<br /><br />I fucking <i>dare</i> you.Icenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-64288576749735412022011-10-14T05:24:35.948-04:002011-10-14T05:24:35.948-04:00It makes me laugh to see people on here declaim 15...It makes me laugh to see people on here declaim 15/hr as an unreasonable wage for unskilled labor. (The part that really made me cringe, as well as being the funniest was Keith's remark about not paying someone more than $15hr to look after his kids. I guess that tells you how much they are worth!) I'm Australian, and I make nearly $20/hr working at McDonalds! If I worked full-time instead of as a casual I could expect a salary of about $33,000. Factory workers over here make anywhere between $17-25hr, and the night shift pays $32/hr.ungodly infotainerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10948579824692580558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-45600823355646870382011-10-13T14:54:49.994-04:002011-10-13T14:54:49.994-04:00Oh, right, forgot to mention: just about every stu...Oh, right, forgot to mention: just about every study done has indicated that of the motivations to succeed, extrinsic factors are vastly weaker than intrinsic factors; and further, that negative extrinsic motivators are in the staggeringly vast majority of cases actually counter-productive.<br /><br />That's right; knowing that you'll starve to death if you get fired doesn't make you more motivated to work; it just makes you have panic attacks, get fired, and starve death.<br /><br />ALL HAIL THE GLORIOUS GILDED AGE!Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-79858252175020636912011-10-13T14:28:45.413-04:002011-10-13T14:28:45.413-04:00Whoops, asshole anon had a name. Sleep deprivation...Whoops, asshole anon had a name. Sleep deprivation makes those things hard to remember.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-53488715473247800022011-10-13T12:44:53.327-04:002011-10-13T12:44:53.327-04:00The issue with eliminating corporate personhood, a...The issue with eliminating corporate personhood, as I understand it, is that it eliminates the ability to launch a class-action lawsuit against a corporation. I could be wrong, though, because I'm not a lawyer (thank God).<br /><br />To asshole anon:<br />a) If you knew anything about psychology, you'd know that lacking food and a safe place to live makes it very difficult to efficiently work to eliminate those conditions. There's a reason that the base of the hierarchy of needs is food and safe living conditions.<br />b) There's actual scientific evidence for neural circuit changes in addiction. Kindly STFU until you're educated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-66355239310082207802011-10-13T11:01:54.217-04:002011-10-13T11:01:54.217-04:00@anon - Good to know you didn't bother, idk, r...@anon - Good to know you didn't bother, idk, reading the comment thread? Where that issue has already been discussed twice?<br /><br />@fuzzy - Funny story, you bitch and moan about people being entitled, but what *I* see is just a complete lack of jobs available, to the point where I gave up looking for a second job after my thousandth job application. Hell, it took my girlfriend six months to land a job at Sears; I guess she should be grateful she had to live on the charity of others while desperately searching for someone who would hire her, amirite, because the panic attacks and pervasive guilt and anxiety are annealing or some shit?<br /><br />Go read your Rand, masturbate to images of the Gilded Age and leave the adults in peace.Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-9519648098383935592011-10-13T07:19:35.610-04:002011-10-13T07:19:35.610-04:00Anon: The primary demands thus far tend to be:
- ...Anon: The primary demands thus far tend to be:<br /><br />- Create jobs in the US to help decrease unemployment.<br /><br />- Raise the minimum wage to a living wage. A min-wage worker in the US working 40-hour weeks only earns $15,080 per year. The poverty line is $24,000.<br /><br />- Eliminate corporate tax loopholes and the concept of corporate personhood. Make sure that the rich are paying taxes too, not just the working class.<br /><br />- Either lower college tuitions, or stop making college necessary in order to earn a survivable income.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-49119019109482456232011-10-13T03:18:39.856-04:002011-10-13T03:18:39.856-04:00And I think people should go hungry. Hardship is a...<i>And I think people should go hungry. Hardship is an annealing process...it tempers people and makes them stronger. You don't know what you can do til you do it---nit because you though it would be cool, but because you had to dig into your gut and find out who and what you really are.</i><br /><br />Do you think people should be raped too? Or stolen from? What doesn't kill you right? <br /><br />I don't think the problem is that people "don't know what they can do until they do it", I think the problem is a lot of people believing that they could do it if they had to, and therefore a) anybody could and b) everybody SHOULD and c) people who are suffering should STFU because "i could do it if I had to"<br /><br />I've been through things that maybe you'd never survive, it doesn't mean therefore I think you should be put through it to see if you can do it xDAmi Angelwingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07263018434610100226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-18424525721559913832011-10-12T23:13:16.251-04:002011-10-12T23:13:16.251-04:00Also:
government officials are people we voted for...Also:<br /><i>government officials are people we voted for</i><br /><br />In practice, though, voting means picking from two or three candidates. There are 350,000,000 people in the United States; fewer than 10 were presidential candidates in November 2008. We have a free choice from that handful, but the process by which they're chosen is a bit less open.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-15425485595409088052011-10-12T23:07:36.341-04:002011-10-12T23:07:36.341-04:00Most recent anon:
http://occupywallst.org/
I'...Most recent anon:<br />http://occupywallst.org/<br /><br />I'm not claiming it's neutral; clearly it's not. But it's a counterpoint to the MSM narrative.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-31293152099369689672011-10-12T22:12:41.620-04:002011-10-12T22:12:41.620-04:00I'm a little unsure how I feel about these pro...I'm a little unsure how I feel about these protests. On the one hand, I think protests are one of the great ways in our country for change to come about- hell, the founding fathers were protesters, which I feel a lot of Tea Partiers forget.<br />There are definitely a lot of things that need to change in our country. And I applaud the people who are trying to bring attention to that. On the other hand, from the little I know about it seems like the protesters aren't putting much effort into finding solutions. It's our country. Yes, some people broke laws and are corrupt and selfish, but government officials are people we voted for, working in the society we're a part of. It's not completely fair to say "You're doing it wrong, you fix it!" I think there needs to be more effort on how we can fix it.<br />Again, I also have limited knowledge on this. It seems a lot of the news is focused on how the protests are just the products of spoiled, discontented, pot-smoking college kids who don't know what they want. I know that is not all true, but I can't seem to find a lot of other info.<br />And I would love to be educated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-73047377534626182732011-10-12T19:35:26.322-04:002011-10-12T19:35:26.322-04:00"Addiction is not a disability. Fat isn't..."Addiction is not a disability. Fat isn't either"<br /><br />What about people who are fat BECAUSE of a disability? Or because of hormonal problems? Oh wait, those people don't exist, the only fat people in the world are that way because they inhale Twinkies.<br /><br />And what about people who are obese because they live in a "food desert," with no affordable source of fruits or vegetables within 20 miles of home?<br /><br />You want hardship? Fuck leftovers, how about my grandmother's having to feed her family nothing but tomato sandwiches for weeks on end, because tomatoes and bread were all she could afford for three teenagers on a teacher's salary AND a military widow's pension? You think she wanted to hear "suffering makes you stronger" when she was going through that?<br /><br />Or wait, maybe my other grandmother was happy to be getting stronger when the bombs destroyed the family farm in Italy. Yeah, maybe she was supposed to be fucking <i>grateful</i> that there was nothing to eat and her family's entire livelihood was GONE.<br /><br />People shouldn't starve if it is at all possible to feed them. It's disgusting and inhumane to make them starve because it "builds character."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-17330780374458733192011-10-12T18:00:09.886-04:002011-10-12T18:00:09.886-04:00Come on, Anon, he knows about hardship, he had to ...Come on, Anon, he knows about hardship, he had to eat <i>leftovers.</i>Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-74921618146302520352011-10-12T17:07:01.311-04:002011-10-12T17:07:01.311-04:00...the point really seems to be flying over your h......the point really seems to be flying over your head, isn't it? <br /><br />People didn't suddenly decide to become more entitled or more lazy three years ago. A recession happened and was allowed to happen by the very people that are supposed to take care of us as a society and run the economy properly. Doesn't that mean nothing to you?<br /><br />It is a society's duty to provide somewhere where everyone has a reasonable standard of living, even the poor. So far that's been the case. But there's been a steep decline and people see this as a problem.<br /><br />The bigger problem here has absolutely nothing to do with individuals and you seem to be willfully ignorant of that.<br /><br />And please, do not fucking talk to me about hardship. You have no idea how smug you sound. Me and my parents immigrated here from a country where democracy was not a thing and the fact that my mom was a Jew caused lifelong grief. Was the appropriate response there also just "the hardship of communism makes you stronger, buck up!"? No. Governments have responsibilities to their peopleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-87650359289770728332011-10-12T16:38:42.652-04:002011-10-12T16:38:42.652-04:00If the idea of spoiled brats not suffering enough ...If the idea of spoiled brats not suffering enough disgusts you, it's got NOTHING on the disgust I feel for a spoiled brat who wishes suffering on others. <br /><br />Take kids from their parents to punish them for being poor? That's not just evil, it's far more expensiventhab helping their parents feed them. But I guess it's worth the money to teach 'em not to be poor.<br /><br />Also it's nice to know that no one is actually disabled on your planet. Also, ZOMG FAT PEOPLE.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-24401966384988449812011-10-12T16:24:34.297-04:002011-10-12T16:24:34.297-04:00Dearest, there were days when I ate the leftovers ...Dearest, there were days when I ate the leftovers from my kids plates so they would be fed. If they ate all the food, then I had none. Not a big deal, we all survived, and all of my kids have worked for everything they have. And are proud of it.<br /><br />If you've got lifelong hardship, it really isn't *my* business to have to fix it for you. It is your own business. Mind you, I'm more than willing to contribute to what I see as deserving, but I didn't expect some vague government to fix my problem and I don't think that going around thinking that your lack of food means someone else has to feed your lazy ass is a valid option.<br /><br />I see too many people who won't work, because they don't want to give up the cable tv/drugs/booze/laying around sorry all day. I don't buy addiction as anything other than straight up moral weakness and don't think that weighing 300 lbs should qualify you to go on disability and be supported by me, because you made atrocious choices earlier in life. <br /><br />Children? Sure. Take 'em away from the parents that can't feed them and don't want them unless it is as a meal ticket. Put some of the rest of the unemployed to work growing food for them and teach them the value of actual real life work.<br /><br />The disabled? That depends. Addiction is not a disability. Fat isn't either---and don't start, because I know many people who are disabled because they are too fat to move. Rural Virginia, for one. Actual real life disability? I'm not sure what that is, because I know a bunch of people who could actually be disabled who work full time and make a living. Even my nephew, who carries more psych diagnosis than ought to be piled on one person, works part-time.<br /><br />I don't think $15 an hour is reasonable for unskilled labor. The nice Latino guys do it for less, work harder, are legal and incidentally polite instead of surly and rude. Sure I'll hire them....and I'll hire their wives for child care, where I'm sure my kids will learn Spanish, get actual real discipline and loving care. Nannies around here--college kids, mostly, who can't get other work, want $20/hr with no actual experience and less common sense. At that rate I'll do the work myself, get it done faster and better.fuzzynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-66606611457081587982011-10-12T16:12:50.251-04:002011-10-12T16:12:50.251-04:00I wonder if Fuzzy even realizes what a condescendi...I wonder if Fuzzy even realizes what a condescending place "hardship it good for you so chin up!" comes from. While there are certain lot of problems in the US it's still very hard to starve. When is the last time anyone here was starving? Not just going hungry for a short while (although even that is not too common) but actually starving?<br /><br /><br />Never. I'm not trying to do a "But there are people in Africa that have it worse!" here. I'm just saying that the "hardship is good for the soul" sort of attitudes reflects how you haven't had it as hard as you might think. And that it's incredibly patronizing towards people that have suffered through terrible hardships.<br /><br /><br />The proper response to "Things are getting worse for people in general and this is directly the fault of our government." is not "Well hardship is good for you stop whining!" It's looking for a solution before people actually do start to starve.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-24927455674404312612011-10-12T15:19:31.984-04:002011-10-12T15:19:31.984-04:00Wait... You don't want to pay reasonable price...Wait... You don't want to pay reasonable prices for labor?<br /><br />I thought you liked hardship! Thought it was good for ya! You should welcome this burden and allow it to make you stronger!Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-63264038566377500982011-10-12T15:13:57.898-04:002011-10-12T15:13:57.898-04:00Fuzzy - Lifelong hardship, the kind where you don&...Fuzzy - Lifelong hardship, the kind where you don't pull yourself up by handily available bootstraps at the end but just die poor, is not good for anyone.<br /><br />If you had children, would you let THEM starve?<br /><br />Anyway, if you want to be a stoic (or, more likely, comfy warm well-fed pseudostoic), good for you. But don't go telling other people--including children and elderly people and disabled people, remember--that they should be legally obligated to play along.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7372431493728579222011-10-12T14:52:01.422-04:002011-10-12T14:52:01.422-04:00No, the argument is that hardship is good for you....No, the argument is that hardship is good for you. Having to struggle for what you want to have is an essential part of growth. Therefore, I consider that hardship is part and parcel of a better world.<br /><br />I live near a military base. There is a direct link between BAH and the cost of off-base housing. If one goes up, so does the other. Things became much less affordable when both parents started working, because the base price people could afford to pay went up. So did the cost of the basics.....<br /><br />We as a society want cheap things, and are not willing to pay the cost of the same things produced by factories paying what you call a living wage. Our jobs are therefore outsourced to areas with lower costs of production. So higher employee costs do lead to fewer jobs. That means that there are more have nots, but the haves are in gravy....and that fewer jobs are available to casual unskilled labor, traditionally the entry level for bootstrapping. I'm not going to pay $15 an hour for someone to mow my lawn or watch my children, both basically unskilled jobs. <br /><br />There was an article recently about someone attempting to hire american labor for harvesting. Economically depressed area, 9-10% unemployment and he was offering $10 or so per hour. He ended up hiring immigrant labour because no one wanted to do actual hard work---I've farmed, and it is backbreaking labor---but before I took charity, I'd starve.fuzzynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26035904696156043122011-10-12T13:09:25.347-04:002011-10-12T13:09:25.347-04:00@Fuzzy - The argument that just because you underw...@Fuzzy - The argument that just because you underwent hardships, others should have to as well... is not only flawed, but is deliberately inhumane.<br /><br />The correct argument is "I underwent hardships, and therefore I work for a better world."Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-34210869520551545302011-10-12T11:47:49.816-04:002011-10-12T11:47:49.816-04:00Fuzzy, while higher employee costs -> fewer job...Fuzzy, while higher employee costs -> fewer jobs, I think there is a minimum standard of living that consists of the minimum wage being higher than it is now, and health care and child care provided for more full-time employees. <br /><br />Dirt Sailor - I'm not sure I've noticed resentment on part of the occupiers movement, except towards the top 1%. That said, I don't think it's helpful for anyone to resent anyone else. I believe the top percentile should indeed pay more taxes than they are now. That's a statement about the tax code, not about The Man and my feelings for them.<br /><br />I'm not sure what you refer to as unsustainable progressive causes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com