tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post7659633774627082002..comments2024-02-23T03:38:53.049-05:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Relationship Ed.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-50249674929328803892012-11-04T00:36:42.754-04:002012-11-04T00:36:42.754-04:00Please write a book! I would love to see these thi...Please write a book! I would love to see these things clearly discussed by a reputable source.<br /><br />...or, failing that, can you recommend one?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28555578244071961902012-05-01T08:52:55.553-04:002012-05-01T08:52:55.553-04:00I was lucky enough to have an amazing homegroup te...I was lucky enough to have an amazing homegroup teacher straight out of uni when I was in years 7-9. While the health and PE teachers were supposed to teach us about STDs and contraception, she ran workshops getting us to think about what we actually want and care about in a partner, about the importance of being comfortable with each other and each others bodies and about what sex and what consent should actually mean. I'll never forget this 4"1 flaming-haired and long-trusted woman exclaiming to our year 8 class that "Consent isn't just about her lying there and accepting, you should both be screaming "fuck me!" before either of you do anything." We talked about fuck buddies and we talked about pressures and expectations that school kids have at different ages; we ran role plays to explore a range of accepted and valid opinions on sexuality, religious, moral or otherwise, and did it all with trust and albeit somewhat blush-inducing humour.<br />The problem is that this kind of thing, like pretty much everything in high school, relies so hugely on the teachers, and most teachers either are or feel the need to act like prudes when they're teaching kids and that means these kinds of open and important conversations just don't happen. I think we need to work on the teachers, either by including these sort of soft subjects or life skills as a bigger priority in teaching degrees, or by putting emphasis on creating organisations well trained and staffed in this sort of important stuff that could run the workshops.Eviehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03196553176327624284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-13798495195157955592012-03-08T14:45:18.648-05:002012-03-08T14:45:18.648-05:00Excellent post!
I'd like to see one more bull...Excellent post! <br />I'd like to see one more bullet point (possibly before the 'different relationships you can have'): some people don't experience romantic attraction/want a romantic relationship ever, and that's ok. And some people are sexually attracted to one gender and romantically attracted to anther. That's ok too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-35838666249671813392011-09-27T01:25:14.299-04:002011-09-27T01:25:14.299-04:00Hi, I'm reporting from Arkansas (part of that ...Hi, I'm reporting from Arkansas (part of that wonderful region known as the 'Bible Belt') and I'd like to point out that most schools here don't even offer basic sex ed. I just graduated from high school and we just covered the basic biology in sixth grade. Just sixth grade. There wasn't even enough conversation about sex to call it abstinence-only. I'm a little unsure if this is the right place to make this point, but there's this big swath of people (myself included) that aren't receiving any information at all, much less the 'relationship ed' that you're advocating here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-76508527760159544382011-09-07T17:22:51.551-04:002011-09-07T17:22:51.551-04:00(expect language oddities in here, English is my s...(expect language oddities in here, English is my second language)<br /><br />Holly:<br />I fail to see how it's something that shouldn't be covered in class. If you mean the noncon porn thing, of course. That DOES sound like something that needs therapy, but being unable to get into a relationship? Definitely something that needs to be covered. I don't know how it should be covered, but it should be covered.<br /><br />I'm sure the problems are fairly individual, but basic communication with the opposite gender is a good start. General social behavior (teaching kids that everyone isn't interested in star trek as they are is an example). Of course I think this is something that should be handled individually with the students who might need it but then again I don't see how THAT can be handled without them feeling like freaks for being singled out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-55003525394907986062011-09-06T04:49:25.328-04:002011-09-06T04:49:25.328-04:00"We'd talk about the fears relationships ..."We'd talk about the fears relationships can stir up--fear of cheating, fear of losing their respect, fear of losing the relationship--and appropriate and inappropriate responses to these fears."<br /><br />I have a lot of trouble with this sort of thing. What would you say are appropriate and inappropriate ways to respond to these kinds of fears?<br /><br />If you want to link me to any resources that cover this, that would be great, but I'm also interested in your opinion.<br /><br />DaveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-6493818451305968412011-09-04T00:12:18.168-04:002011-09-04T00:12:18.168-04:00>How to not abuse someone. "Don't hit ...>How to not abuse someone. "Don't hit them" would<br />>be mentioned but wouldn't be the focus. The focus<br />>would be on "don't try to control them."<br /><br />I beg you, tell this to my parents, please!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-73841597206383356272011-08-21T02:23:49.843-04:002011-08-21T02:23:49.843-04:00Here's a story about teaching kids how to brea...Here's a story about teaching kids how to break up. It's called 'Face it, don't Facebook it.'<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/magazine/teaching-kids-how-to-break-up-nicely.html?_r=1&ref=fashionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39254417592034077212011-08-20T09:17:50.829-04:002011-08-20T09:17:50.829-04:00LIKE.
If they did this in schools, I probably wou...LIKE.<br /><br />If they did this in schools, I probably wouldn't have had a controlling HS bf. I wonder what my psyche would be like if that hadn't happened...Spritehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02823974260934290333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-33971515143621277022011-08-19T22:14:42.474-04:002011-08-19T22:14:42.474-04:00I've been with someone who would justify fight...I've been with someone who would justify fighting a lot because, after all, healthy couples fight. It took me a while to realize that doesn't mean "couples who don't fight aren't healthy" but "couples in which one person simply gives in to the other on everything to avoid fights" are profoundly dysfunctional. Merely not (yet) having found something you disagree on is fine.<br /><br />My parents never argued in front of me, and while I recognize that's better than the opposite, I've had no model for expressing anger or disagreement within a relationship.<br /><br />g-i-t-e:<br /><i>Arguing, as I see it, is a part of most healthy relationships[...].<br /><br />Fighting, on the other hand, tends to involve dirty tactics and/or a disregard for the other person </i><br /><br />In other words, you argue about something, you fight with someone?Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5969901443042042272011-08-19T08:11:30.299-04:002011-08-19T08:11:30.299-04:00I completely agree. Also on the Twilight part. No ...I completely agree. Also on the Twilight part. No young girl should read Twilight without a guide to help discover the dangers in the relationships portrayed.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06615046738488357378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-10794417831371224912011-08-19T08:09:01.950-04:002011-08-19T08:09:01.950-04:00Anon @3.41:
I think that that's a fairly comm...Anon @3.41:<br /><br />I think that that's a fairly common stage to go through for people who were bullied or lonely as kids - I've seen so many people (yes, including myself) come to university, join my geeky social circle, and immediately jump into a relationship with someone that they weren't actually at all well suited for past the fact that the other person is the first in their lives to show an interest. It usually ends badly, but with the person realising that they *can* be loved, and can seek out a better relationship armed with that knowledge.<br /><br />(The trouble with being severely bullied is that everyone else keeps their distance for fear of getting shunned as well - so no-one is willing to /show/ that interest, even if they feel it.)<br /><br />TJ_RoweAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-80100240548403631742011-08-19T06:21:51.394-04:002011-08-19T06:21:51.394-04:00@Holly - This curriculum does exist! It's call...@Holly - This curriculum does exist! It's called Our Whole Lives and was (interestingly enough) created by the UU and UCC faith traditions. It's completely secular - and quite literally life changing. <br /><br />I took the 7-9th grade class when I was younger and I credit it with my ability to have safe, consensual, healthy relationships - we literally had 'how to break up with people' workshops. <br /><br />Its amazing - if you'd like to know more, or talk more about it, my email is smladypants@gmail.com<br /><br />On a different note, I cannot thank you enough for this blog. <br /><br />You give me hope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-53053619170505548512011-08-18T16:45:24.983-04:002011-08-18T16:45:24.983-04:00@Holly: things changed almost completely for me af...@Holly: things changed almost completely for me after my first relationship, but perhaps because it happened fairly late I can still remember a little how it was, and how there was a big difference between before and after "any relationship" so I can sort of see where the other anon may be coming from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-58952494012120358482011-08-18T07:27:52.178-04:002011-08-18T07:27:52.178-04:00Anon - What you're dealing with isn't some...Anon - What you're dealing with <i>isn't</i> something to be covered in a class but really does fall under needing therapy if you're able to get it. Unless you're still in your teens or early twenties, that's not a normal feeling.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-9809900834189291032011-08-18T05:03:39.049-04:002011-08-18T05:03:39.049-04:00Holly, you're awesome. This is why I'm kin...Holly, you're awesome. This is why I'm kind of glad that I've made it to 19 a virgin with minimal relationship experience, because it's given me the opportunity to get the theory-learning from places as awesome as this. And whether or not my singleton circumstances ever change, this is all valuable material for fictional relationships I might write. :P<br /><br />This sort of thing should definitely come up in health class; nothing of the sort was ever even mentioned through middle and high school, and I think it could have been really valuable... and possibly more likely to be taken seriously than sex ed, but I think its benefits and lessons would cover the lessons from sex ed - 'respect your partner' = 'no means no' and 'take care of each others' health and safety' and 'consider the consequences, risks, and precautions.'<br /><br />A+ post, would nod sagely and comment approvingly again. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-38210557448206609492011-08-18T03:41:26.032-04:002011-08-18T03:41:26.032-04:00Unless you just mean that I've had relationshi...<em>Unless you just mean that I've had relationships, which I guess I can't argue with.</em><br /><br />For people who have never ever in their life been loved or even desired by anyone at all, "any" relationship may seem preferable to nothing. Because their "nothing" isn't the same as normal "nothing". It's when you could only get off to noncon porn because the possibility of consent required just too much suspension of disbelief, that sort of thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-51379209429284555222011-08-17T21:50:40.671-04:002011-08-17T21:50:40.671-04:00Part of this class should also be how to apologize...Part of this class should also be how to apologize and not be defensive about it-- "I'm sorry, I didn't want to do [x], and I love you and value your feelings."<br /><br />-IrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-10466037608078203312011-08-17T21:06:23.223-04:002011-08-17T21:06:23.223-04:00If only those teachers demonstrated that they didn...If only those teachers demonstrated that they didn't need someone else to negotiate, bargain, and fight for them. I completely agree that this is something that needs to be taught, and I'd be surprised if a refresher wasn't needed every few years. I know I could use that class.Steelghostnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-73091529342591111342011-08-17T20:25:39.507-04:002011-08-17T20:25:39.507-04:00Not just non-violent! Fighting on-topic and
and...Not just non-violent! Fighting on-topic and <br />and in a way that doesn't burn bridges and makes resolution easy is worth a lot, even if not fighting would be preferable. <br /><br />Especially because, re: Goth's point, there are some issues you can't resolve by agreeing to disagree, like where you live and what you do about a partner's creepy uncle hitting on you (yes, this has happened to me. No, "I don't know what to do, just ignore it," isn't something I can agree to disagree with.)Emmanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26660157046730031462011-08-17T18:35:58.751-04:002011-08-17T18:35:58.751-04:00Love this post, Holly, and I agree it's totall...Love this post, Holly, and I agree it's totally necessary!<br /><br />I think a lot of adults and such assume that children pick this stuff up by osmosis or something, when in fact explicit teaching is much better.<br /><br />Re: arguing vs fighting<br />I think that arguing is better than fighting, but that people *do* fight sometimes, and it's also important to teach people how to make even bad fights non-violent, and how to make up after fights. Fighting sucks, but it's going to happen, and teaching people how to deal with the aftermath of a fight is useful as well.<br /><br />-IrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-32517633810501203102011-08-17T17:05:24.496-04:002011-08-17T17:05:24.496-04:00I like how you explain it, Goth :)I like how you explain it, Goth :)Leahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09697267464955551031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-22309227196397706412011-08-17T10:31:27.975-04:002011-08-17T10:31:27.975-04:00Re: arguing vs. fighting
Arguing, as I see it, is...Re: arguing vs. fighting<br /><br />Arguing, as I see it, is a part of most healthy relationships. You're not going to agree on EVERYthing, because that's pretty much impossible. Arguing involves talking about the things on which you disagree, and yes, voices get raised and people get angry. But it's pretty much under control, and afterwards, both parties are able to calm down, agree to disagree, and the relationship is still just fine.<br /><br />Fighting, on the other hand, tends to involve dirty tactics and/or a disregard for the other person (again, this is my opinion based on what I've seen). If you're bringing up old wounds, disregarding what the other person says, trying to tear down the other person's self-esteem, and/or engaging in violent physical behavior (hitting, throwing things, etc., even if you don't actually hit the other person zirself), then you are no longer arguing, you are fighting. Fighting is bad for relationships; arguing is good for them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-49815131939910642282011-08-17T10:15:04.155-04:002011-08-17T10:15:04.155-04:00Re: Emma/Holly and fighting
In my previous relati...Re: Emma/Holly and fighting<br /><br />In my previous relationship I dated the guy for 5 years, and we screamed at each other nearly every day. And then say we'd talk about it in the morning. But then we wouldn't, and the issue would hide under the rug until the next fight. We got pretty explosive, petty, and I became somewhat physically abusive - I'd push him if he came to close, or throw things at him sometimes.<br /><br />When I got into my current relationship some months over two years ago, I was taught that yelling does not get your point across any better. I was taught that bringing up petty things irrelevant to the argument does not have to be standard. I was taught that you can argue, even fight, without raising your voice or swearing. Doesn't mean that my feelings don't get hurt, or that I don't at times feel distant or even resentful towards my partner, but I know that if he or I brings up something that makes us unhappy, it doesn't mean that the relationship is at risk or that we are a bad couple.<br /><br />We fight very, very rarely. We don't even argue often. I can remember THREE times in our relationship where we had yelling fights, and two were in the beginning, the third a few months ago. We have been able to work out a pretty good system of simply stating our issues. It's not perfect - I bottle things when I think I'm being stupid about something, such as being jealous or thinking I'm doing too much around the house - but I guess he's sensitive enough to my feelings and cues that he can say, "I know something is bothering you - what is it?" without it being a personal attack or having annoyance attached to the words. I think THOSE kinds of skills should be taught in schools, because it took me a long time to even be exposed to that.<br /><br />Because of the way my life has been with him, I am now incredibly sensitive to yelling, whether it be at me, another couple, or parent-child interaction. It's so unfamiliar to my ears that it sends my body into a reactive state where I think there's some sort of emergency.Leahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09697267464955551031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-56451152872201289562011-08-17T02:30:45.240-04:002011-08-17T02:30:45.240-04:00Hello! I'm a fellow sex-positive/BDSM/poly typ...Hello! I'm a fellow sex-positive/BDSM/poly type who just stumbled upon your blog via a link from a friend's FB post. Nice to meet you.<br /><br />I've always felt the same way. I would've loved to have had such an education as a child. Instead, I got a late start to relationships because the only model I knew of was the vanilla-monogamy-marriage-children-death model, and I knew that model didn't fit for me.<br /><br />Fortunately, college and the growth of the internet helped me discover new worlds and ways of thinking.Toddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12124123477842551046noreply@blogger.com