tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post1516581177580572770..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: The Atlantic on: Why porn proves sex is grim and miserable!Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-88806632061774349242014-05-15T19:42:26.792-04:002014-05-15T19:42:26.792-04:00The "domestic goulash" misread made me l...The "domestic goulash" misread made me lol.<br /><br />Time for my own misread: " . . . two women simultaneously working their *crutches* on opposing ends of a double-sided dildo . . . " Not gonna lie--disabled women fucking each other with the ends of their crutches sounds hot as hell.<br /><br />As for wanting women devastated for my pleasure, the answer is yes, and I'm kind of surprised you'd think it would be otherwise after spending time with lots of dominant men as lovers or as part of the BDSM scene. I'm inferring your point was that this isn't the majority of people, but on a blog about kink (among other things) the audience's answer to your rhetorical question is not going to be, "Oh God, no! I've never, ever, had a fantasy about subjugating women or consensually role-played this out in real life!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28817451403735422832013-03-07T03:31:53.716-05:002013-03-07T03:31:53.716-05:00"Sometimes, man... sometimes I'll be havi..."Sometimes, man... sometimes I'll be having sex and I'll look up (down, back, in the mirror, behind the robotic octopus) at the guy and he's just smiling. Just grinning like an idiot that he's getting laid. There's no secret hatred. No dark psychodrama. Just "Dude, there's a cute chick on my cock! How awesome is that? Dude!""<br /><br />-I think this is the best paragraph I'll read today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-14913729110045132842011-08-09T21:32:01.387-04:002011-08-09T21:32:01.387-04:00I think that even the phrase 'male sexuality&#...I think that even the phrase 'male sexuality' is ridiculous. People have all sorts of different sexualities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28082592399253861832011-01-26T13:14:08.455-05:002011-01-26T13:14:08.455-05:00I posted a comment that got eaten, but the key par...I posted a comment that got eaten, but the key part was, there's a chicken-and-egg thing there, do people who other their partners have bad-degrading sex, or does bad-degrading sex lead people to other their partners?Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-82073132898829176122011-01-26T10:40:40.158-05:002011-01-26T10:40:40.158-05:00Holly, you give good fisk.
So, why is it that &qu...Holly, you give good fisk.<br /><br />So, why is it that "midget porn" is always used as an example of the Ultimate Weirdness in these sorts of pieces?<br /><br /><i>if you do mind the sexual politics, all you get is the following:<br /><br />1) Porn is always dark and miserable.<br />2) Therefore, male sexuality is always dark and cruel.<br />3) Therefore, sex is always grim and destructive.<br />4) Therefore, please publish me in "The Atlantic."</i><br /><br />3 does follow from 2. I mean, they're both wrong, but if 2 were true, 3 would be as well, at least as applied to sex with men in.<br /><br />* * *<br /><br /><i>Personally, i find her comment here more damaging than the porn she complains about. Sex for me is always about the desire or passion the people have for each other, never weapons to be used in a struggle. That sounds forced and not remotely fun. I think her comment there reveals her opinions on sex in general.</i><br /><br />Absolutely. She seems too academically or God forbid, personally invested in the idea of sex as something men do <b>to</b> women and women do <b>for</b> men that she doesn't even believe that other people believe it's something people do <b>with</b> each other.<br /><br />And of course there are no lesbians, only women who do other women to satisfy the male gaze (an understandable confusion if your only source of information on the subject is girl-girl porn).<br /><br /><i>She has defined men as the evil other, and is using porn to prove her point. I've actually seen similar attitudes among certain people I know. They have unhappy, unfulfilling, antagonistic relationships. They assume this is normal and the way things just are</i><br /><br />There's a chicken-and-egg question there: do people who other their partners have atagonistic relationships, or does an antagonistic relationship lead people to other their partners?<br /><br /><i>"So, male readers, I have a question. Is the desire to subjugate and degrade women something that just naturally sets in around the time the deep voice and body hair get going? Do you have boyhood memories of waking up with unexpectedly sticky sheets and a sudden urge to see a woman devastated for your pleasure?"<br /><br />For me, personally (and I DON'T think I'm a good representative sample for all men), yes. I enjoy that, and get my rocks off with it. But I've just about always been very careful to search out female partners who complementarily enjoy being subjugated and degraded (at least by me+at least in certain contexts). If everyone walked away with no permanent scars (or at least none they weren't happy to have) and with happy memories, I think we were doing okay at avoiding the Tragic Darkosity of Evil Male Sexuality (Boo!) Whirlpool.</i><br /><br />Yeah, I like things I'm not sure the writer of the <i>Atlantic</i> piece would be comfortable with, but I have no illusions that the customs of my psyche and libido are the laws of human nature.<br /><br />Actually -- and I'm not going for a cookie here -- one of the things that will turn me off about (text)porn is when it comes through loud and clear that the writer has Issues With Women (generally in the form of <a href="http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakTheHaughty" rel="nofollow">celebrating subjugation</a>*). And I can actually see why people who have Issues With Women would have tastes that overlap with mine, even though I (hope I) don't.<br /><br />*With apologies for killing your productivity.<br /><br /><i>Now, apparently, masturbating to some kinds of porn (vanilla, with hot people) is fun & normal, while getting off on other kinds of porn (kinky, queer, amateur) is a degrading expression of men's inner hatred of women.</i><br /><br />On the other hand, IME it's nigh impossible to find producers who promise not to extradiegetically degrade or humiliate the performers who will even make vanilla porn with hot people, almost as if <b>that's</b> a degrading expression of men's inner hatred of women.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-78628348766673613862011-01-25T21:34:06.292-05:002011-01-25T21:34:06.292-05:00Anonymous-
Ah. Right. Now that you mention it, I ...Anonymous-<br /><br />Ah. Right. Now that you mention it, I have heard that one proposed before in all serious. (There's entire movies about it!) <br /><br />*bangs head on desk*<br /><br />As for Yaoi Fangirls, one word: "Who?" Remember, its axiomatic to those with this thesis that all porn is consumed by men.Nentuabyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06207685117778656542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-41283820671780122462011-01-24T18:32:08.472-05:002011-01-24T18:32:08.472-05:00Awkward! I've gone from angry to sad to embar...Awkward! I've gone from angry to sad to embarrassed for this woman, Vargas-Cooper. She's clearly mistaken her own personal issues with porn and men and sex as some kind of psychological insight about humans.Amiinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-62667895483069955722011-01-24T14:20:55.726-05:002011-01-24T14:20:55.726-05:00(now that I got my browser working and can post co...(now that I got my browser working and can post comments):<br /><br />I just want to say thank you to Holly and all the commenters here. When I first read this article in the Atlantic, I knew it was a load of shit. It just happens to be the same shit that was taught to me when I was too young to be skeptical, and it's hard for me to rebut it. I felt disturbed and weighed down by it.<br /><br />It is quite a relief to be able to laugh at it, and see it thoughtfully and eloquently and even sarcastically debunked. Thank you all.Rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-64499833405722908772011-01-23T18:38:28.000-05:002011-01-23T18:38:28.000-05:00Quote:
1) Porn is always dark and miserable.
2) T...Quote:<br /><br />1) Porn is always dark and miserable.<br />2) Therefore, male sexuality is always dark and cruel.<br />3) Therefore, sex is always grim and destructive.<br />4) Therefore, please publish me in "The Atlantic."<br /><br />I feel like I'm reading something from Warhammer 40K. "In the grim darkness of the far future, sex with men is grim and dark."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-34983272316363426892011-01-23T02:28:27.550-05:002011-01-23T02:28:27.550-05:00So where the fuck does gay porn fit in your thesis...<i>So where the fuck does gay porn fit in your thesis?</i><br /><br />I bet they'd say it's men play-acting the subjugation of women, and men getting off on the appropriation and utter negation of the plight -and even existence- of women, all for the pleasure of men, or some such. <br /><br />But what about yaoi fangirls?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-62826768847322989262011-01-22T12:45:32.163-05:002011-01-22T12:45:32.163-05:00@Nentuaby -
It's like the proofs that all od...@Nentuaby - <br /><br />It's like the proofs that all odd numbers are prime. You know...<br /><br />"1 is prime, 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is an outlier / outside of safety tolerances / etc".<br /><br />Except that some people actually believe the bullshit that this woman spews.Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-34941159758659089222011-01-22T11:13:32.672-05:002011-01-22T11:13:32.672-05:00Whenever somebody gets started on what porn reveal...Whenever somebody gets started on what porn reveals once and for all about the relationship between men and women, the question you have to ask is:<br /><br />So where the <i>fuck</i> does gay porn fit in your thesis?<br /><br />Seriously, if every single act in porn is revelatory of a masculine attitude toward women (even the stuff that includes no men, because "of course" that's still made for a masculine <i>audience</i>...) then what about the stuff that doesn't include any women? What does that reveal, anyway?Nentuabyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06207685117778656542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-73527924185037338832011-01-22T08:25:44.320-05:002011-01-22T08:25:44.320-05:00So, male readers, I have a question. Is the desire...<i>So, male readers, I have a question. Is the desire to subjugate and degrade women something that just naturally sets in around the time the deep voice and body hair get going? </i><br /><br />I had a period during which my interests ran almost exclusively to non-consensual porn. I think it was mostly because my "suspension of disbelief" would crash at the idea of someone being consensually sexual with me. Because nobody ever had. As soon as that biographical situation changed, my interests changed as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30893697191733818032011-01-22T08:05:52.718-05:002011-01-22T08:05:52.718-05:00Actually, what she brings up isn't funny at AL...Actually, what she brings up isn't funny at ALL - I'm a woman and a feminist, and for the longest time I had serious issues about sex and my sexuality. <br /><br />'Cause guess what - I <i>like</i> to be degraded and humiliated during sex. I <i>want</i> a man to devastate me for his pleasure (which usually gives me enormous amounts of pleasure as well...). <br /><br />And for years I thought that something was wrong with me - that I had internalized a harmful Patriarchal narrative, that I was setting back feminism a thousand years by showing man that women <i>do</i> want to be dominated, I was afraid that if I did admit my sexual fantasies to a man, he won't be able to tell the difference between dominating me sexually, and dominating me in other aspects of our relationship...<br /><br />Yeah, it took me a long time to shake off that shit, a long time to come to the conclusions many of you have stated above - time in which I was not having the kind of sex I really wanted. And that sucks.<br /><br />And that's the harm in these kind of ridiculous articles - they make people ashamed of what turns them on, and ashamed of their sexuality, and ashamed of expressing it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-15750725820296955232011-01-22T07:14:19.096-05:002011-01-22T07:14:19.096-05:00Emily H - I took offense too at the way the author...Emily H - I took offense too at the way the author degraded people with less than standard perfect bodies. With these sort of attitudes around, no wonder so many women are too worried about their appearance to enjoy sex and being unclothed with their husbands! I even started to worry a little when I read her words....Candicenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30170694309520024272011-01-22T01:48:50.105-05:002011-01-22T01:48:50.105-05:00So, the only way women can get published in a majo...So, the only way women can get published in a major literary magazine...Mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08619905104506682889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-42510642169799267082011-01-21T23:24:42.280-05:002011-01-21T23:24:42.280-05:00It's also worth noting that anti-porn crusader...It's also worth noting that anti-porn crusaders throughout history have been happy to reinforce people's prejudices and unconscious fears, while pretending to be engaged in "science." In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, any kind of masturbation at all would sap your strength & make you go insane. Now, apparently, masturbating to some kinds of porn (vanilla, with hot people) is fun & normal, while getting off on other kinds of porn (kinky, queer, amateur) is a degrading expression of men's inner hatred of women. But it's important to have no historical perspective, if you want to rant about "eternal truths about men and women."Emily H.http://ihatenyt.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-80886102370818658922011-01-21T23:08:25.412-05:002011-01-21T23:08:25.412-05:00This response is classic, and soooooooo satisfying...This response is classic, and soooooooo satisfying to read. Surprising that the author here comes right out & says men are naturally evil and sadistic -- "A warring dynamic based on power and subjugation has always existed between men and women." Usually writers like this make vague assertions about "men and women are DIFFERENT! Don't you feminists understand that men & women aren't exactly the same?", & readers are left to infer the details (e.g. that men are all horny sadists). Surprised she thinks she can just, like, assert that with no evidence, though. Great job hiring responsible journalists, Atlantic.<br /><br />"The ho-hum of husbands filming their scrawny white wives having sex with paunchy black men in budget motels." Eww! It's so kinky and perverse of those people, how they're too fat or too skinny, and don't look like movie stars! What an extreme, degrading kink! This sort of thing seems to pop up a lot in "critical" or "intellectual"-y writing about porn and sex -- describing people in such a way that it sounds like they're disgusting & depressing if they don't fit the mainstream beauty idea. All that stuff about "saggy" rear ends on middle-aged people & "shabby" corsets. As if people who don't look like swimsuit models ought to just give up on sex, for fear of degrading themselves by having sex with each other.<br /><br />No hint at all that it might be a positive & joyous thing for people who don't have universally praised body types to take pleasure publicly in hot sex. & it's a massive example of begging the question. Trying to prove that porn is grim, depressing and dark? Just use grim, depressing, dark adjectives for everything you describe, & readers will feel depressed by the end of the article! GREAT JOB, REAL COGENT ARGUMENT.Emily H.http://ihatenyt.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-19126778145161870182011-01-21T21:33:43.671-05:002011-01-21T21:33:43.671-05:00Like Svutlana mother always say, "Misogynist ...Like Svutlana mother always say, "Misogynist porn metanarratives be total tiresome." <br />Poor Ms Natasha who expect hostile humiliate male sexual arousal and--surprise!--get exact what she expect. Svutlana expect happy celebrate male sexual arousal with balloons and big smile and get me that too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89914514291709524222011-01-21T21:07:41.476-05:002011-01-21T21:07:41.476-05:00I'm a male switch who tends a little more subm...I'm a male switch who tends a little more submissive, so "devastating" doesn't exactly fit my paradigm too well. My most recurrent fantasy involves begging for a footjob after cunnilingus, and it's kind of hard to imagine how my lover is devastated by this. I want to devastate even less than I want to be devastated. Instead I want to put my lover on a pedestal, and sometimes have her do the same to me.<br /><br /><i>The granting of sex is the most powerful weapon women possess in their struggle with men.</i><br /><br />This leaves me with the question, what is the struggle she's referring to <i>for</i>? What does she hope to win from that struggle? Presumably she's trying to get something from men; surely not love in her view. If she isn't looking for love, what kind of partners will she attract? Is she looking for money or security? Is she writing about the results of a self-fulfilling prophecy?AndrewVanbergenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14923434958244441857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-78944960380112557662011-01-21T17:57:54.578-05:002011-01-21T17:57:54.578-05:00All I have to say is that given her opinion that n...All I have to say is that given her opinion that normal women don't like degrading sex or patriarchal relationships it is abundantly clear she is unacquainted with the entire freaking wall of bad romance novels found in most libraries.Ravenshrikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-65456531697837370462011-01-21T15:40:22.650-05:002011-01-21T15:40:22.650-05:00I agree with some of the other posters that the ar...I agree with some of the other posters that the article was very unfair and negative towards male sexuality (while also erasing the existence of female desire and its darker components). Clarisse Thorn had a good take on this subject recently and I just thought of it while I was reading the recent comments; it also is a good example of how my particular brand of sex-positive feminism includes examination and breaking down of stupid gender stereotypes that restrict male experiences:<br /><br />http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/01/02/men-dont-deserve-the-word-creep/Kaijanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-36938207903851474772011-01-21T15:22:58.449-05:002011-01-21T15:22:58.449-05:00So he was sexually honest -- not so sure about her...So he was sexually honest -- not so sure about her. Without that viewpoint it never coheres.Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-41555628389452280842011-01-21T15:00:47.415-05:002011-01-21T15:00:47.415-05:00Jack - I think what you're getting at there is...Jack - I think what you're getting at there is covered under the difference between "hot-degrading" and "just unhappy."<br /><br />I don't even know what this author thinks about female masochism, though. She doesn't get into female desire at all--she "complied" with the uncomfortable buttsex and sounds happy about it, but doesn't disclose any motive other than being super impressed with the guy's "honesty." Whether it <i>was</i> uncomfortable for her, and how she felt about that, aren't addressed, and that's a huge hole (haw) in this article.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-35643776955834974722011-01-21T14:53:30.379-05:002011-01-21T14:53:30.379-05:00"However, I am totally going to refer to my m..."However, I am totally going to refer to my marriage as "my domestic gulag" from now on. That's kinda hot."<br /><br />Totally read that as "domestic goulash". Hey, whatever floats your boat...Oddtwanghttp://www.twitter.com/Oddtwangnoreply@blogger.com