tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post152162778647437793..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: On The Availability of Pussy In Contemporary American Society.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-25705156753787214832010-05-15T01:12:18.317-04:002010-05-15T01:12:18.317-04:00also, per "no one will fuck me"-if you h...also, per "no one will fuck me"-if you have the cash, baldly, you can pay someone to do it. If that's all you really want, I think it's a better solution than playing all these tortured games, frankly.belledame222https://www.blogger.com/profile/13947289856453172848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-47800977396689326502010-04-30T07:52:01.502-04:002010-04-30T07:52:01.502-04:00I'm probably someone's "mommy figure&...I'm probably someone's "mommy figure", but not JFP's, unless age difference alone, and not anything about the actual relationship dynamic, is the defining factor. Which has interesting implications if the age difference is in the other direction. I'd suggest, instead, that this might indicate a flaw in a definition that relies on universalizing a demographic statistic rather than on lived experience.<br /><br />That wasn't the only thing I was laughing about, though; I was also amused at the part about the purported challenge. Y'see, <i>I</i> don't depend on male initiation of courtship, and a good thing too, because I'm the one who ran across him in the blogosphere - I had to make <i>some</i> kind of first move or he wouldn't even have known I was there, much less that I wanted to get to know him better.<br /><br />Of course that doesn't address his experiences other than this instance, but I'll let him speak to that if he wishes to do so.SunflowerPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069913788437731669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-23300936123678861792010-04-29T16:04:18.796-04:002010-04-29T16:04:18.796-04:00Yeah, but she's 48, unless her profile is lyin...Yeah, but she's 48, unless her profile is lying, and he's 30-mumble, so by Roissy/PUA definition he's ipso facto a beta dating his mommy figure.<br /><br />Again, if they're happy, more power to them.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-84948375259945548962010-04-29T14:16:42.347-04:002010-04-29T14:16:42.347-04:00Eurosabra - SunflowerP is laughing because she'...Eurosabra - SunflowerP is laughing because she's in a relationship with JFP...Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89913363717435363912010-04-29T14:11:05.054-04:002010-04-29T14:11:05.054-04:00I dunno, JFP's currently remaining unpaired AF...I dunno, JFP's currently remaining unpaired AFAIK may make him happier than my current partnered status, and he may (technically speaking) spend less time and effort meeting people per pairing, but happiness is an individual issue.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39376432453837777682010-04-29T04:19:09.261-04:002010-04-29T04:19:09.261-04:00Eurosabra said, "I think JFP might have no tr...Eurosabra said, <i>"I think JFP might have no trouble meeting people to be (possibly very close) friends with but getting someone romantically interested is a challenge."</i><br /><br />BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Geez, I let this place slide off the back end of "too much Internet, too little time," and look what happens.<br /><br />Since you're talking individual examples/anecdotes (with names, yet!), Eurosabra, you might consider that JFP's approach is <i>demonstrably more successful</i> than yours.SunflowerPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069913788437731669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-54954531903457351432010-04-28T21:01:04.386-04:002010-04-28T21:01:04.386-04:00I think i'd just point out that even though th...I think i'd just point out that even though there are actually more men than women, as your statistics indicate, you present no analysis of the frequency distribution of getting laid; perhaps there are a few guys who get laid substantially more, and so the average joe perceives a drought. This isn't to say I think you're wrong; given my fairly recent past, I'm in no position to say "wah, girls get laid and guys don't". I'm just tossing in a viewpoint that should be countered because it is also incorrect.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02581891898967294129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21123536567042776422010-04-28T00:32:38.644-04:002010-04-28T00:32:38.644-04:00As I said, I'm an extrovert who has never had ...As I said, I'm an extrovert who has never had trouble meeting people, and my cynicism and over-investment in PUA culture has never been apparent to any woman who actually dated me, nor has any woman actually in a relationship with me ever given me less than rave reviews. Nor does anything other than my visible disability mark me out as different. If anything the problem is a combination of being seen as too aloof when I belong to a low-status-nerd subculture (subsidiary university employee) seen as too bland. I was a lot more pleasant person when I was more open and more naive and more trusting that one of my friends would eventually be interested, and now I'm both much more aggressively sexual and more acerbic, and I get laid. What I don't have is the godlike power over women that masculine, brutal men like Paul Janka (an old friend) develop, or the ten-women-doling-out-their numbers-a-day draw of my former roommate, Randy Josselyn. A minor TV role, half-forgotten, combined with immense physical beauty, will get you whatever you want.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-13597716220501747272010-04-27T22:48:41.127-04:002010-04-27T22:48:41.127-04:00Eurosaba, have you visited planet earth much? I d...Eurosaba, have you visited planet earth much? I don't know what dream world you live in but nothing you says reflects the reality of people I know personally, or young people I've observed studying and working on college campuses for the last 10 years.<br /><br />I remember when I was young and stupid enough to hang out with douchebags, they would complain about exatly what you complain about. They were generally slovenly, didn't take care of their bodies or minds and both physically and mentally unattractive, but they whined that girls were never good enough, judged other women, and complained that women (who really were just plain too good for them) never approached them and always went out with richer or more attractive guys. Well you know what, most of those girls were actually going out with nicer, smarter, funnier, or sexier guys. By sexy I don't mean physically attractive, I mean actually emotionally and physically arousing in their mannerisms and actions.<br /><br />If you're too lazy to try to meet women and see them as people, it's no wonder you're having trouble getting laid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-9709987933665477092010-04-27T10:02:37.750-04:002010-04-27T10:02:37.750-04:00Eurosabra - Lots of women don't get approached...Eurosabra - Lots of women don't get approached at all, actually. If a woman is not the "woman means young and attractive only" kind of woman, she most definitely won't be fending 'em off.<br /><br />Also, being approached only by people you don't find attractive is no help at all.<br /><br /><i>if straight women were already safe to express their sexuality in an uninhibited fashion </i><br />They still wouldn't fuck everyone who wanted them, because that's not just "inhibition."Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-1961693969427151362010-04-27T02:31:49.196-04:002010-04-27T02:31:49.196-04:00It is a male problem because virtually all women w...It is a male problem because virtually all women will still be approached (a real problem for women who identify as asexual, lesbians, or gender separatists) whereas there is no similar dynamic for men. In a system dependent on male initiation of courtship, men will have to perform the male gender role in order to have any hope of success. For men who cannot, learning to perform this role is vital.<br /><br />I do have the problem that rape culture is the noise-to-signal ratio of pick-up. Only if straight women were already safe to express their sexuality in an uninhibited fashion (for those who wish) would pick-up not face the problem of always being "too much" male desire in the public sphere, such that men would be willing to hang back and read signals. (Someone would signal interest often enough that the shortfall would not feel like NEVER being desired.) Until then, go read Hugo Schwyzer's post "On Never Feeling Hot."Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-57174060253519876222010-04-26T16:17:36.672-04:002010-04-26T16:17:36.672-04:00"We all want a generous "wants to fuck m...<i>"We all want a generous "wants to fuck me" circle on Holly's Venn diagram, no matter how small its overlap with the "I want to fuck" circle."</i><br /><br />Oh Jesus fuck no. No no no no no.<br /><br />I want a <i>small</i> "wants to fuck me" circle. Tiny. A couple-few people tops. Maybe I'm being excessively literal about it, but anyone who gets their head to 'wants to fuck me' without clearing that want with me for okayness scares the everliving shit out of me. At best they should have the courtesy to not hassle me about it, if they're going to go there; I don't want to know unless we have the sort of relationship where such desires have been agreed to be appropriate.<br /><br />I see plenty of attractive people in the world, even people I am at some level attracted to. I do not want to fuck most of them. Hell, I don't even know most of them.Dw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-12314209665121047872010-04-26T14:43:11.910-04:002010-04-26T14:43:11.910-04:00Eurosabra - There isn't a lid for every pot. ...Eurosabra - There isn't a lid for every pot. But there are a lot of lids and a lot of pots, and being unable to get lidded is a personal and social-skills issue, not a gender one.<br /><br />There are absolutely <i>people</i> who can't get laid--what I question is the assumption that this is a one-sided <i>male</i> problem with a gender-role-based solution.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-13456815083591503142010-04-26T14:39:50.625-04:002010-04-26T14:39:50.625-04:00Again, I don't think "lid for every pot&q...Again, I don't think "lid for every pot" suits people with otherwise normal social lives who only find someone interested in them every few years. Fine-tuning your radar for detecting interest is a laudable goal, and as someone who was always an extrovert and always good at meeting strangers in public, I found pick-up brought my usual social rituals from the realm of "connecting with friends" to "connecting with potential significant others." I was also a lot nicer person back when I was more naive and assumed one of my friends would eventually be interested. I was also a lot more physically able and relatively economically privileged, too. I think Bookworm-type dry spells are a sort of "infra-pick-up" issue, in that I think JFP might have no trouble meeting people to be (possibly very close) friends with but getting someone romantically interested is a challenge.<br /><br />Nice typo on "public commodity."Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-82004155371971423662010-04-26T13:48:51.872-04:002010-04-26T13:48:51.872-04:00there is no other subculture than pick-up if you a...<i>there is no other subculture than pick-up if you are trying to meet attractive strangers in the public sphere.</i><br /><br />This is the problem I was talking about; I don't mean to single you out, Eurosabra, but you're a good example of someone who just doesn't isn't aware of any other way to actively try to find a partner.<br /><br /><i>Seriously, look around you. About 90% of all Americans will get married eventually--and I don't think 90% of Americans are PUAs.</i><br /><br />Holly, I see your point, but I'm not sure that "eventually will get married" is the best metric here, as it equates the person who's perfectly happy with their love life at all times and gets married to whom they want and when, and the person who endures miserable loneliness for years or even decades before eventually finding a partner. (And excludes those people who find a partner but don't marry them, but the point would remain even if we used "long-term relationship" or "relationship of their choice" rather than marriage.)<br /><br />I don't know, I've just been sick of getting it from both sides: the "have nots" telling me that my experiences with loneliness and being single didn't count because I wasn't completely alone 100% of the time, and the "haves" telling me that it wasn't reasonable to want to meet someone interested in me more than once every few years.jfpbookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09845037337646489772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-1202070194778812032010-04-26T13:06:24.597-04:002010-04-26T13:06:24.597-04:00Eurosabra - woman-hoarding.
I am not a thing. A g...Eurosabra - <i>woman-hoarding.</i><br />I am not a thing. A guy who's "hoarding" me isn't keeping me in his goddamn basement, he's dating me. My status isn't "withheld from other men," it's "happy with this man."<br /><br /><i> What it really means is that there's a minimum social buy-in of money, coolness, or hipness to get laid at all,</i><br />You know what, yeah. Wah wah wah, but you do have to have something to offer a partner, and that's not an injustice. I date guys because I like something about them, not because they exist and I owe everyone an even chance.<br /><br /><i>80 percent of the attraction is leveled at 20 percent of the participants.</i><br />No. This just ignores the whole Ordinary Guy with a Girlfriend phenomenon, where, really, 80 percent of the attraction is leveled at 80 percent of the participants, with tiny fractions of superstuds and superlosers on the fringes.<br /><br /><i>approaching strangers is viewed as a sexualization of neutral social space, and hence rape,</i><br />No, but talking like women are a pubic commodity of which you are unjustly deprived is a frequent precursor to rape.<br /><br /><i>Unless you want to enter into the subculture of "unattractive awkward people who avoid human contact" there is no other subculture than pick-up if you are trying to meet attractive strangers in the public sphere.</i><br />There's the subculture of being a person. Most guys aren't PUAs and most guys--just numberically out of everyone--have partners.<br /><br />Seriously, look around you. About 90% of all Americans will get married eventually--and I don't think 90% of Americans are PUAs.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-78598250507827861862010-04-26T12:50:46.554-04:002010-04-26T12:50:46.554-04:00I have pretty extensive experience with the deform...I have pretty extensive experience with the deformations Middle Eastern human societies undergo with REAL harem-building, and Western club-hopping mimics it closely enough that, by and large, urban men are accurate when they complain of woman-hoarding. What it really means is that there's a minimum social buy-in of money, coolness, or hipness to get laid at all, unless the women who speak your specific sociolect are willing to be flexible on those issues or are attracted to physically-average men. It's JDate writ large, where 80 percent of the attraction is leveled at 20 percent of the participants.<br /><br />It's more that feminism has described pick-up as rape culture, since approaching strangers is viewed as a sexualization of neutral social space, and hence rape, as in Kate Harding's famous "Schroedinger's Rapist" thread. I'd refer you to the famous Denise Romano for a not-particularly-convincing discussion of pick-up as rape.<br /><br />Unless you want to enter into the subculture of "unattractive awkward people who avoid human contact" there is no other subculture than pick-up if you are trying to meet attractive strangers in the public sphere. You can match a few external identifiers like shoegazer or jock culture, but you still have to get them.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-19610606760560449032010-04-25T17:42:57.705-04:002010-04-25T17:42:57.705-04:00If we're going to talk about "REAL evo ps...If we're going to talk about "REAL evo psych", I'd like to point out that the definition of a harem species in biology is one in which the male monopolizes more than one female <i>by physically preventing other males from having any access, and her from going after it</i>. It's not actually in a female's fitness interests, when more than one male is around and males have no minimal investment in raising, to be faithful to the harem-owner- it's in her interest to maximize the genetic diversity of her offspring and social ties within the larger group.<br /><br />Lions are a classic harem species; the only benefit the lionesses get from the males that happen to be the ones in her pride are a given time are a higher chance that that season of her cubs won't be killed off by a new invading male or coalition of males seeking to take over the harem. <br /><br />Describing successful pickup artists as "harem owners" and then saying they are "overly invested" in rape culture when you have quite literally defined rape culture as the end of successful pickup artistry is not exactly a shining defense.<br /><br />And if this culture of harem-owning men and women who apparently willingly follow them around giving them exclusive sexual access is a real one restricted to a specific subculture that you alone in a discussion group of diverse sexually active men and women have experienced... maybe you need to find a <i>different fucking culture</i> to participate in.LabRathttp://www.atomicnerds.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-69455238704918574372010-04-25T17:33:33.444-04:002010-04-25T17:33:33.444-04:00Sorry, Eurosabra, but I need more than your reassu...Sorry, Eurosabra, but I need more than your reassurance to believe those harems exist. I should have encountered them at some point, or at least encountered someone who's encountered them. Instead, I know a handful of guys who practice PUA stuff, some of whom sometimes have a girlfriend.<br /><br />The distinction between seeking and finding partners is utterly lost on me too.Brunonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26130796802889059092010-04-25T16:04:08.083-04:002010-04-25T16:04:08.083-04:00Okay, so you are obviously not living in the same ...Okay, so you are obviously not living in the same subcultures as I am in LA/NYC/DC, or women are following PUAs around to become part of their harems, or (most likely) both. So we are not looking at the same phenomena at all. <br />PUA was invented to give men a reliable means of looking for partners, that it gives some of them a reliable means of getting partners is just icing on the cake.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39221324025292428172010-04-25T14:49:21.126-04:002010-04-25T14:49:21.126-04:00Eurosabra - What aebhel said; there's no city ...Eurosabra - What aebhel said; there's no city in the US where men commonly build harems. If a guy does have a lot of women on speed-dial (which most sexually active guys even in LA don't, and which shouldn't be your first goal if you don't have a sex life at all now), they most likely have a healthy speed-dial of their own.<br /><br />I used to live in LA, man. There might be some weird rarefied culture of about 300 club kids who live that way (although frankly I doubt it), but the other 5 million guys there are largely Ordinary Guys with Girlfriends.<br /><br />Bruno - If it helps, I'll fuck you any day I have time for the drive. Add one to that side of your Venn diagram and feel better. :pCliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-69717116075352026452010-04-24T19:12:42.472-04:002010-04-24T19:12:42.472-04:00Yeah, I never did understood how people can be obl...Yeah, I never did understood how people can be oblivious to the basic math that, if the ratio of men seeking women to women seeking men is 1:1, then finding a sex partner by definition can't be easier for women than for men.<br /><br />I do think there's a difference between voluntary and involuntary celibacy, but it gets slippery when I try to define it. Was I involuntarily celibate during those times I didn't have a partner but wanted one? Did it become voluntary because I wasn't willing to commit 100% of my free time to looking for sex partners? Did it when I gave up trying at all?<br /><br />I think one of the other things that goes on is that a lot of the complaining guys feel that there's no reliable way for them to go about finding a partner; the perception is that a woman can "put herself out there"--go to a bar, or a party, or on Craigslist--and provided they're willing to lower their standards enough have a very good chance of finding a partner, whereas a man who does this won't.<br /><br />I'm not sure how true this is in general, but I will say that for most of my twenties I had a very difficult time finding partners, and I definitely wasn't looking for the "blonde 25-year-old swimsuit model." I just couldn't figure out what else I could be doing that I (and every other single guy around) wasn't doing already.jfpbookwormhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09845037337646489772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-74100023997949383372010-04-24T19:05:57.572-04:002010-04-24T19:05:57.572-04:00I had to go back to Eurosabra's original comme...I had to go back to Eurosabra's <a href="http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2010/04/ordinary-guy-with-girlfriend.html#comments" rel="nofollow">original comment</a> in order to make any sense of this. I'm still not sure I really get it.<br /><br />Yes, if there's hetero sex taking place, by definition some dude and some chick are both getting laid. (This is also why significant gender differences in numbers of partners are impossible.) But that has little to nothing to do with the sensation of being ignored by women.<br /><br />Feeling desirable is at least as much of a goal as actually getting laid. We all want a generous "wants to fuck me" circle on Holly's Venn diagram, no matter how small its overlap with the "I want to fuck" circle. And on that count, in my experience, women come out way ahead.<br /><br />That's largely a product of our coulture: Men are trained to signal, and women are trained to look for signals; men may be bad at interpreting signals, and women may be worse at sending them. It's unreasonable to expect a different outcome, but what I understand rationally isn't much comfort when I feel like a sexual nullity.<br /><br />(Rationally, again, I have nothing to complain about. But telling me shit like "some guys never get laid at all" is the equivalent of telling someone with a disappointing job that he could be working with a gun in his back for a bowl of rice a day. And that guy has access to career advice, networking, sample resumes, continuing education and so on that generally have no analog in the dating world. [Using the same analogy, PUAs are the real estate millionaires who show up on late-night TV offering to share their secrets with you.])Brunonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-53463774318792718272010-04-24T18:03:00.102-04:002010-04-24T18:03:00.102-04:00PUA's aren't cynics, they're delusiona...PUA's aren't cynics, they're delusional asshats who would like to consider themselves cynics because it's a vast improvement over their actual personalities. They see that extremely attractive and/or wealthy men can get away with treating women like shit and think 'oh, well, clearly the way to a woman's heart is to treat her like shit'. They have a zero-sum approach to human relationships. They view sex as a commodity and woman as puzzles to be solved rather than fellow human beings. <br /><br />I've been to NYC. I've been to LA and DC. I have good friends and/or family living in LA and NYC, and somehow all the men I know living in those locations manage to attract partners of their preferred gender without losing out to Mister Alpha Studmuffin's Arabian Nights-style harem. <br /><br />Sexually active women who are not in relationships do not typically tie themselves down to one man who has a dozen other women on booty-call duty. This is the sort of crap PUA's tell each other to justify why nobody wants to fuck them.aebhelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-48287452510874433662010-04-24T16:08:10.669-04:002010-04-24T16:08:10.669-04:00Actually club-and-college cultures in LA/NYC/DC fe...Actually club-and-college cultures in LA/NYC/DC feature pretty explicit harem-building. Anarchist, Punk, Hippie and Kink poly communities are probably much more egalitarian and probably more woman-friendly. The PUA cynics are right.Eurosabranoreply@blogger.com