tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post241497579176150200..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Beyond not rape.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21823789020292429472012-06-20T11:29:21.134-04:002012-06-20T11:29:21.134-04:00I've seen a lot of effort go in to debunking t...I've seen a lot of effort go in to debunking the 1-2% stat, sometimes to place it as high as 9%. The fear, not of raping someone without knowing it, but of them regretting it and changing the story because while they consented physically and verbally emotionally they weren't prepared, is a legitimate one. Without the anecdotal evidence of others, I've had three instances where I performed or had performed on me a sexual act with someone I didn't want anything to do with (male and female) and afterwards felt a lot of shame and regret over. Do I call rape? No, I went along willingly in the moment and I can't recant that, but I can see how people with more to lose or just less introspection would jump at the chance to rewrite what happened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39693888874019153422012-01-09T13:31:11.346-05:002012-01-09T13:31:11.346-05:00Dec 5 anon
Well thats not always true, if you'...Dec 5 anon<br />Well thats not always true, if you're equally impared then neither party has the power nessasary to take advantage and make it rape, however if person A got person B drunk with the intention of coersing them into sex then it would be rape even if person B then got drunk themselves...<br /><br />Anyway I found this entire thread quite interesting, while I am still relitivly young at a spry age of 21 I've only had one sexual partner and that was my ex of 2 years, and while we did have sex it was never mindblowing for me, she quite enjoyed it and that was a confidence booster but it was always meh for me, being a man one of the sexual problems you see everywhere is premature ejaculation, but my problem was just the opposite, I couldn't come, I can quite easily while masturbating and we we're able to talk pretty openly about sex and what we liked and all that, so I'm not really sure where that falls... everyone was sharing I thought I might add a bit...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28850713651007134282011-12-05T15:06:15.679-05:002011-12-05T15:06:15.679-05:00mapoftheproblemati, having sex with someone while ...mapoftheproblemati, having sex with someone while they're drunk is rape.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-19978937669754890512011-12-01T12:36:47.651-05:002011-12-01T12:36:47.651-05:00"social issues like asperger's syndrome o..."social issues like asperger's syndrome or a career in IT"<br /><br />Speaking as a woman with asperger's syndrome, heading into a career in IT... I think you just repeated yourself there. (I saw this and laughed, just had to comment)<br /><br />Oh, and as for the earlier statement "who would want to go they're life without sex?" - That would be me. >_> Good blog post though. I followed a link here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27290078820096752262011-11-09T03:33:47.148-05:002011-11-09T03:33:47.148-05:00This is why "consent is sexy" has always...This is why "consent is sexy" has always sort of annoyed me. I understand and completely approve of the reasoning behind it as a catchy hook, of course, but it's never really resonated for me. It just seems to me to be setting the bar awfully low, and is verging on redundant, like saying that sex is sexy, since consent is just the absolute bare minimum needed to qualify something as sex rather than rape. Hopefully the sex you're having is sexy because of more than just the fact that it's not rape.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-18958149856813438162011-10-25T21:56:20.211-04:002011-10-25T21:56:20.211-04:00And it flat-out horrifies me when sexual consent i...<i>And it flat-out horrifies me when sexual consent is treated as fuzzy</i><br /><br />One of the things I love about BDSM is that I generally have no need to question consent. Generally - if someone consents to anything with me - it's because we've had a frank and open conversation about limits, safewords, consent, withdrawl of consent, and the fact that we consent to exploring things within limits up until the negotiated means of withdrawing consent is utilized or until we're too awesomely worn out to explore any further.<br /><br />But in a vanilla context, there are a lot of situations where consent is fuzzy. It's an inherent part of 'the game' for vanilla boys and girls who go to clubs and bars to hook up (or a vast majority of western first world residents aged 18 to 40). The general social convention is for the guy to approach and initiate conversation, without harassing or being creepy. The girl then generally has carte blanch to escalate to touching in non explicit ways - but the guy is almost universally expected to just figure out when it's ok to kiss the girl. When it's ok to touch the girl. and often when it's ok for that guy to take that girl's clothes off or do something more intimate. I know many feminists who'd argue that getting any part of that guessing game wrong is rape. Even if the girl involved gives no feedback or indication that the guy has guessed wrong, apart from not being as awesomely enthusiastic as she might be.<br /><br />In new relationships, with partners that you don't know well, for younger or inexperienced guys, or for guys with social issues like asperger's syndrome or a career in IT, there's a lot of gray area in those dynamics. A lot of fuzzy guessing required. And all too often, the only people giving advice on how to take the gray and fuzzy out of those situations are awful. When you have choices like abstinence, accidental rapist, or fledgling PUA - I can see how you'd end up in the gray area dealing with fuzzy. And worrying about it.<br /><br />I'm not saying there's a fix to that, or at least not a practical one (Hey everyone, from now on, we're going to skip the games and implicit sexual negotiations conducted while intoxicated, in dark and noisy venues, and just talk about fucking like nobody involved is psychic, hooray! Wait, why isn't it working?). I just feel like being horrified by the gray area around consent isn't necessarily helping/indicative of what leads toward that situation.Scootahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01473993204344682647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-16800048440568637362011-10-25T05:11:17.857-04:002011-10-25T05:11:17.857-04:00I was having fun reading your other posts. Funny, ...I was having fun reading your other posts. Funny, ranting, pointed, ridiculous, intense, smart, insightful... the whole nine yards.<br />I suddenly had to stop and hold back tears when I read this post, because not once in twenty five years of sexual activity have I ever been certain that my partner really and truly wanted me. I spent five years of marriage being reasonably certain that my wife really wanted nothing to do with me at all, and I didn't even know WHY. And I couldn't even tentatively guess as to why any of them did end up consenting at all.<br />I'm not even sure I should thank you. I'm not sure I shouldn't either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-53929677137625292652011-10-24T13:14:00.696-04:002011-10-24T13:14:00.696-04:00I have thought this, but never had the wherewithal...I have thought this, but never had the wherewithall to put it together in such a clear- and amusing- manner. Kudos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-29922098592028311412011-10-22T22:16:12.443-04:002011-10-22T22:16:12.443-04:00I've had one girlfriend who literally wouldn&#...I've had one girlfriend who literally wouldn't talk about sex. I pushed it to the point of "she came round to my place, we get naked and turned on, I say 'do you want to have sex' and she says 'I hate it when you spoil the moment'". But she was in no doubt about her consent and her desire for sex, and could communicate what she wanted. What she couldn't do was reverse the religious nonsense that said very firmly "nice girls don't want sex" and her parents' ugly marriage between almost-rich guy and almost-trophy wife (lots of insecurity). That was a tricky relationship - the sex was great, the friendship was great, but the barriers around what she could talk about broke it for me.<br /><br />These days I "suffer" (giggle) enthusiastic requests for sex and we've recently begun talking more openly about other things we need to negotiate on. Which is so amazingly better that I really understand how from this side of the fence it makes perfect sense to say "you gotta try this" and even "if you can't have this why bother with sex at all?" I've gone to YKINMK on it - some people are just not willing to take the risks that might get them to mind-blowing, and that's their call to make.Moz Talks Too Muchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-46043915818713514052011-10-20T11:20:45.427-04:002011-10-20T11:20:45.427-04:00@ Redheaded Succubus - there are definitely femini...@ Redheaded Succubus - there are definitely feminists out there who are down with the submissive role; I know lots of them, in addition to being one. :-)<br /><br />flightlessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28683384107934338492011-10-19T15:43:07.845-04:002011-10-19T15:43:07.845-04:00Ostropoler, re: slut-shaming question on Pandagon....Ostropoler, re: slut-shaming question on Pandagon. It's because you're the wrong Yiddish literary figure. Gimpel gets all the sheyne Maidels. Of course, I'm a Zionist cactus, so what do I know?Eurosabranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-19045830906484678062011-10-19T09:33:50.002-04:002011-10-19T09:33:50.002-04:00I and many other friends are actually terrified to...<i>I and many other friends are actually terrified to have sex with a women we date because the slightest non communication can mean a disaster.</i><br /><br />It's interesting that you'd rather give up sex than talk to women.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27950323773635233912011-10-19T08:25:36.405-04:002011-10-19T08:25:36.405-04:00Great Piece. As a 28 year old man, I related to w...Great Piece. As a 28 year old man, I related to what you wrote about if one party is consensual and the other is not, "sex is probably not much fun".<br />These days with so much emphasis in the media decrying date rape on college campuses and elsewhere, it is frightening to be a man.<br />I and many other friends are actually terrified to have sex with a women we date because the slightest non communication can mean a disaster. A man accused of rape can potentially <br />go to jail.<br />Perhaps it is better for men these days to stay abstinent -perhaps for women as well. That is why the pornography industry and items such as fleshlights are increasing popular for men.<br />The dating game can be scary for men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-29589983753110920962011-10-19T00:36:27.550-04:002011-10-19T00:36:27.550-04:00Very likely the wrong reaction. I have friends who...Very likely the wrong reaction. I have friends who lean more toward the militant man hating spectrum of things, or who feel that women should have men kneeling at their feet begging for the honor of serving her whims... Neither of those appeal to me, and I'm pretty open about my preference for the sort of men who would rather have me do the kneeling, so it leads to friction.<br /><br />I stumbled here through a fetlife discussion about someone ranting in a metafilter post that self-identifying as a slut means someone can't be a feminist blahblahblah... so figured it was worth checking out.<br /><br />I'll likely do more reading and commenting as I wander back through old posts.Redheaded Succubushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05760898877759480720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-43556693973181277262011-10-18T21:38:56.121-04:002011-10-18T21:38:56.121-04:00I'd submit (so to speak) that you've been ...I'd submit (so to speak) that you've been reading the wrong feminist blogs, if that's the reaction you get.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-44031092404509437452011-10-18T17:45:32.760-04:002011-10-18T17:45:32.760-04:00Normally I avoid feminist writings, because my pre...Normally I avoid feminist writings, because my preference for Dominant, domineering men generally sets me in a category that most of my feminist acquaintances consider lowest of the low (omg, a woman who enjoys her men a bit misogynistic)...<br /><br />but this post made me giggle in many places, so I think I'll keep reading ;)Redheaded Succubushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05760898877759480720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-68061217034433985572011-10-16T09:38:50.786-04:002011-10-16T09:38:50.786-04:00The level of ambivalence you have, well, if that&#...<i>The level of ambivalence you have, well, if that's okay with you and your partners, I'm not in your relationship, but I don't think I'd do well with a partner who told me that they frequently didn't know, before, during, or after whether they (had) wanted sex then.</i><br /><br />I envy people who (apparently) know what they want. There's <i>nothing</i> I don't have mixed feelings about. If I'd ever decided to wait until I knew what I wanted before doing it, I would have starved to death in my bed.<br /><br />I find I have to just decide on a course of action, based on my best guess as to whether it'll turn out right in the end, for some interpretation of "turn out right." Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I've given up on pursuing happiness -- it cones when it wants to, or not, as the case may be. Instead, I try to do right by people, which at least gives my life meaning. And I try not to do too many obviously stupid things....AMMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-37299559888250564812011-10-15T21:06:46.395-04:002011-10-15T21:06:46.395-04:00AMM:
I'm not happy with the idea that consent ...AMM:<br /><i>I'm not happy with the idea that consent has to be "enthusiastic." I've never had a relationship, or ever made love, where there wasn't a lot of ambivalence. Half the time, I don't know if I really wanted it until afterwards, and sometimes not even then. I'm a lot closer to the end of my life than the beginning, and I have never had what I would call "mind-blowing sex," and I doubt I ever will. By your standards, this is "bad sex" -- does this mean that I (and people like me) should forgo sex entirely for the rest of my life?</i><br /><br />I think the concept of enthusiastic consent originated as a quick and, as it were, dirty way to distinguish consent from non-consent by steering people away from borderline cases. If nonconsent is 0, mere consent is 1, and enthusiastic consent is 4, what looks like a 1 through a haze of lust and confirmation bias may be a 0 while what looks like a 4 will probably be at least a 2. It's never wrong to wait for enthusiastic consent but there are circumstances where I will say it might not be necessary.<br /><br />It's not clear to me why you're having sex you're not sure you want, but I don't think anyone's saying you shouldn't have consensual but bad(=not mind-blowing) sex.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-79299321218265210952011-10-15T19:37:13.796-04:002011-10-15T19:37:13.796-04:00AMM:
To my mind (and I am not Holly, of course), ...AMM:<br /><br />To my mind (and I am not Holly, of course), if two people both want sex because they expect that it will increase intimacy between them, that's a good reason. The goal doesn't need to be orgasm, your own or your partner's: but everyone involved should want to be there, and want to do this.<br /><br />The level of ambivalence you have, well, if that's okay with you and your partners, I'm not in your relationship, but I don't think I'd do well with a partner who told me that they frequently didn't know, before, during, or after whether they (had) wanted sex then. <br /><br />That's quite different from "oh, go ahead, but make it quick because I just want to get some sleep." And that in turn is different from "I'm too tired/stressed/sore to really get into this, but I'll be happy to watch you play with yourself."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-70092932604897771102011-10-15T14:51:04.836-04:002011-10-15T14:51:04.836-04:00(Sorry for the delayed response -- I'm a slow ...(Sorry for the delayed response -- I'm a slow thinker.)<br /><br />On the one hand, I agree that if figuring out whether your partner is consenting is a problem for you, your modus operandi is already too coercive. As Holly says, this is to sex as "it didn't poison anyone" is to cooking.<br /><br />On the other hand, I'm not happy with the idea that consent has to be "enthusiastic." I've never had a relationship, or ever made love, where there wasn't a lot of ambivalence. Half the time, I don't know if I really wanted it until afterwards, and sometimes not even then. I'm a lot closer to the end of my life than the beginning, and I have <i>never</i> had what I would call "mind-blowing sex," and I doubt I ever will. By your standards, this is "bad sex" -- does this mean that I (and people like me) should forgo sex entirely for the rest of my life?<br /><br />But I don't do sex to have my mind blown. For me, it's a lot more about the relationship, about trust and intimacy. I can't even imagine making love (I hate the expression "have sex"!!) with someone if I didn't feel a visceral sense of trust in them. I'm convinced that the biggest reason that I stopped being able to function sexually in my marriage was that I didn't feel safe with my (now ex-)wife. Her idea of sex was a lot more like what Holly describes -- hey, let's jump in the sack, I'll do this, you do that, but it wasn't accompanied by a relationship that made me feel like she was even aware of me as a human being, so it just felt like one more duty.AMMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-72724704418830660342011-10-15T12:49:51.365-04:002011-10-15T12:49:51.365-04:00goth-is-not-emo:
Eh? As flightless said, the comm...goth-is-not-emo:<br /><br />Eh? As flightless said, the comment wasn't directed at Holly but at this <a href="http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/10/aiming-higher-than-not-bad.html?showComment=1318641278889#c2680770859846490236" rel="nofollow">anon</a> here. Threaded comments or blockquotes would be useful indeed ): Sorry for the misunderstanding. <br /><br />And I didn't think about your first point like this before, but it definitely makes sense - as well as a good argument against people who argue that "bad sex" (aka coerced sex) is better than no sex.Kollege_Messerschmitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10304623449509607183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-77177637864893492082011-10-15T08:51:10.179-04:002011-10-15T08:51:10.179-04:00(I wish this site had threaded comments!)
flightl...(I wish this site had threaded comments!)<br /><br />flightlessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5216612491502219472011-10-15T08:50:14.270-04:002011-10-15T08:50:14.270-04:00re: Point 2 - pretty sure it was directed at "...re: Point 2 - pretty sure it was directed at "9:14PM Anon" not at Holly.<br /><br />re: "starving to death" - no, I recommend "Meals For One"! At least when I masturbate, I know my partner is into it.<br /><br />flightlessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-65396848470861248922011-10-15T07:02:05.027-04:002011-10-15T07:02:05.027-04:00Kollege:
Point 1: Masturbation, with or without t...Kollege:<br /><br />Point 1: Masturbation, with or without toys, is a form of sex.<br /><br />Point 2: read Holly's last comment again. Very carefully. She never says that rape is preferable to...anything, really. I don't know where you're getting that idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-8187243907586772792011-10-15T00:05:07.788-04:002011-10-15T00:05:07.788-04:009:14 PM Anon
@Holly well of course you can survive...9:14 PM Anon<br /><i>@Holly well of course you can survive your whole life without any type of sex, but who wants to do that? </i><br /><br />Uh, so borderline-raping people is better than no sex? If you don't particularly care if your partner enjoys themselves, why not just use your hands (or sex toys) instead of using your partner as a glorified masturbation aid? <br />I just... fail to see the advances of coercing someone into sex, just so you can get off.<br />Care to explain?Kollege_Messerschmitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10304623449509607183noreply@blogger.com