tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post3436410354131881550..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Two Silly Ideas.Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-19729506747428283042011-08-16T07:48:08.872-04:002011-08-16T07:48:08.872-04:00Even though I'm grown up, I always see myself ...Even though I'm grown up, I always see myself as a girl, not a woman, and I call myself a girl. Even that is hard to understand for most people.<br />I act like a grown-up, I look like a grown-up, I smoke and fuck and drink and do all sorts of grown-up stuff, but I just don't feel like calling myself a woman. It's like there's jsut something missing, or like 22 just doesn't really count as the right age.<br />Words may not change the way I act, but it changes how I feel about others. I don't feel that serious and self-reliant I thought of adults when I was a kid.I hate it when I call myself a girl and people correct me saying I'm a woman now.<br />The same way I hate it when people tell me I'm acting like a man. I always act like myself, even when I wear some social masks, even when I'm not myself, and I don't want to be described in stereotypes.<br />Even though my body is that of a woman, it doesn't feel right to be one. Like being called a smoker, it's just a habit, not my very being.My body is my appearance, not my soul, my character.I feel like a child in a giant, frightening world I need to explore, I am not grown up yet, and at best I would like to be described with my name alone.<br />A dragon is a dragon is a dragon.It's his nature.<br />Maybe it would be best if people told each other what they think they are when they meet. What they actually feel like.<br />So maybe the words do change how we act. Depending on who uses them.<br />I should stop ranting now, I had an important point, but I lost it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21652309644732756232011-07-18T23:01:47.951-04:002011-07-18T23:01:47.951-04:00I'm glad to hear your thought number two. I am...I'm glad to hear your thought number two. I am also happily/unquestioningly biologically female. But as far as gender goes, I don't identify with terms like "girl" or "woman" at all, and never have.<br /><br />I'm also not at all transgender. I don't terribly mind being perceived by the world as a woman (most of the time, and depending on how they react to their perception). And I'm happy doing activities and acting in ways that lie on all different points of the gender cline, as it were. But even so: I don't identify as a "girl" or "woman". <br /><br />It's interesting to read so many comments from people who do identify as a certain gender, in fact, simply because it is so different than me.Natalienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-7234615805135460942011-07-17T21:18:03.636-04:002011-07-17T21:18:03.636-04:00*shrugs* I feel, personally, that I don't have...*shrugs* I feel, personally, that I don't have a gender, that the spot where gender goes is just empty. Blank. It complicates things because I still refer to myself as a lesbian because I am attracted to female bodies but not genders, so the best advice I can give you is to give yourself some serious space to think about it. Maybe during the closet thing?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-16146340305994607252011-07-13T02:39:11.742-04:002011-07-13T02:39:11.742-04:00@Holly,
I'm going to make a crude analogy her...@Holly,<br /><br />I'm going to make a crude analogy here that might be helpful. <br /><br />It's based on a blog post by a transchick who goes by the handle GenderBitch. I don't know if her name is a buzzword around these parts, but the post can be found here:<br /><br />http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2009/10/30/sexuality-binarism-cissexism/<br /><br />Now, maybe I'm drastically misinterpreting her post, but it seems to me that sexuality is PERSONAL: that people are attracted to different things based on their genes, their hormones, their life experiences, their nutrition (it's hard to grow without raw materials), etc.<br /><br />Take me, for example: I'm attracted to anatomically female people who happen to enjoy their bodies, and who have a certain waist-to-hip ratio.<br /><br />But that's MY personal sexuality, and though other people might share some aspects of it, nowhere is it written that mine is "correct" in any way.<br /><br />So, my analogy: if sexuality is personal, if there's no such thing as a "correct" sexuality, doesn't that imply that there's also no such thing as a "correct" way of living our bodies?<br /><br />In other words, do you have to have to have a certain relationship with your body to qualify as a "woman" or a "man?" <br /><br />I hope not. If so, I probably don't qualify as a "man," then, since I don't have the textbook relationship with my anatomically male body that some men do!<br /><br />As far as I'm concerned, you're not a man or a woman, you're a Holly -- Homo Sapiens Holly Pervocracy -- with your own relationship with your body and your own suite of things to which you're attracted.<br /><br />Cheers!Gaiusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-28688585749483613462011-07-12T09:29:23.169-04:002011-07-12T09:29:23.169-04:00I really never meant "I'm not a woman, be...I really never meant "I'm not a woman, because women suck and I don't suck." It's not some attempt to "escape" gender stereotypes or impose them on people who do identify as women.<br /><br />I only meant something more like "I'm not a woman, because I don't know what 'being a woman' feels like and don't think it's part of my identity."Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5902962840710282922011-07-12T09:27:05.626-04:002011-07-12T09:27:05.626-04:00It's hard to tell this in the right way and wi...It's hard to tell this in the right way and without offending those who have problems with being a woman more serious than this, but in places where being a woman means being weak, stupid, without owning a sexuality etc, telling that "I'm not weak, because I'm not a woman!" is so much easier to tell than "i am strong AND a woman", so in your place I'd only tell the first one when I had reasonably ruled out the second one. This line of reasoning reminds me of what Virginia Woolf tried to use, when talking about an androgynous mind with male and female parts in it that let us write - I'm intelligent because my mind has a bit of manliness i it, you see, not because women can write too.<br /><br />"I'm too intelligent to be a woman"? "I'm not actually a woman, because all women like to knit and babieeees and cook, so I can't be a woman-woman, you know, even if I have no problem with the body or the pronouns or such"? You only have to be a vaguely feminist cis woman to have big problems with what being a woman means, thanks; you can be something else, but it certainly is not a sign in itself.<br /><br />On the other hand, if you are really trans or genderqueer, I won't force you to stay in my category just out of solidarity, of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-11899447914723913902011-07-12T07:56:43.224-04:002011-07-12T07:56:43.224-04:00Holly said,
The other thing I worry about is that...Holly said,<br /><br /><i>The other thing I worry about is that sometimes I do things that are quite stereotypically feminine--I wear skirts and I get fussy with my nails and hair--and I don't want to be subject to "ah hah! you're a woman after all!"</i><br /><br />And then you do things that would be considered manly like build your own harness, grunt and fart in front of a TV and scan sexy women (I’m just guessing here). Right? Wouldn’t renouncing gender, or choosing to be agendered, free you from these bonds? <br /><br />I, myself, am more of a morphing gender shopper. I used to be really masculine and my wardrobe was filled with men’s suits and ties. I acted all gender neutral, maybe on the aggressive side. Now, I’m playing the woman part, which is also really fun. I’ve incorporated a lot of the old me like acting assertive and kind of aggressively in conversations. I lift heavy loads for people and open doors for them, I’m usually the one to buy someone a drink or to offer a light; I sew clothes and bake cakes for people I like, I use high heels and dresses and wear my hair long. <br /><br />I see it as a performance. The things I choose to wear are different from the ways I choose to act and how I feel about myself. Performing femininity in only my looks has given me a lot allowance to start just being me under it. But I think it’s because I chose it after trying to be really adrogynous and butch first. This is just the way I incorporated everything I am to who I perform as in a gendered world. I feel good about myself now, not so self-conscious all the time. I identify as female, not only because of the performance, but because of the possibilities of my body and the way my mind is wired around that. That's pretty new to me though, and I know the same feelings could spring in other configurations as well. <br /><br />Your way might be different, opposite almost, but I think choosing whatever you want, whatever you are for your "gender" is the same for both of us.<br /><br />Rogue BambiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-62292308945861105142011-07-11T22:07:50.040-04:002011-07-11T22:07:50.040-04:00Fizz: There are some philosophical theories that s...Fizz: There are some philosophical theories that say we are never the same person from one moment to the next. Every few years are so, our bodies do replace all of their cells. So I think embracing who are in this moment is perfectly acceptable both mentally and biologically - as is embracing who you might be ten years or five hours from now - it could be totally different from one moment to the next.<br /><br />AaronEm: I'm not saying there are no distractions in a forest - but you will make distractions no matter where you are. This is just my nosy two cents as someone who feels least distracted in isolated nature where there are no artificial lights, no electric noises, no people sounds, no traffic....just you and your surroundings. :PLainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26483300679770134052011-07-11T20:14:47.826-04:002011-07-11T20:14:47.826-04:00I don't feel male, but nor do I feel not-male;...I don't <b>feel</b> male, but nor do I feel not-male; since I present as male it's hard for me to say I'm not. But as was said in the "person" post, it really doesn't matter.<br /><br />I think of the gender binary as like Newtonian physics: not really how reality works, but seems to give the right answer often enough to be useful.<br /><br />Similarly, "heterosexual" is the least-bad fit for my sexual orientation. I insist on PIV being part of my relationships*. It's not the only thing, or even the only most important thing (not a typo), but if someone doesn't have a V or doesn't want a P in it, that's it. <br /><br />So that means I want a woman, right?<br /><br />Well, in practice, yes, but in an ideal world, we wouldn't assume that someone's genitalia or what they do with them determines their gender**. If my girlfriend told me she was a man, and nothing else about our relationship changed, I wouldn't suddenly break up with him.<br /><br />*That's me; I'm not saying all or only heterosexuals insist on or even want PIV.<br /><br />**Q: What is the gender of someone who has a vagina, drinks cosmos, and knits? A: Jungrire gurl fnl vg vf.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-91007015636838316662011-07-11T00:56:57.380-04:002011-07-11T00:56:57.380-04:00I realize I'm late , but I've been thinkin...I realize I'm late , but I've been thinking about it since you posted, and wanted to comment again. <br /><br />I think that what makes gender so hard to pin down is that we treat it like it's something we are, but it's actually something we do. You wrote about this with that amazing "dressing up your dog like a dog" post. Gender is dressing up, but the context of that outfit is everyone's belief that it's like a disguise or a uniform, not like a halloween costume - bystanders believe it expresses something about you, unlike when you dress up as batman for fun. Obviously a lot of people are communicating something important about themselves by identifying as a gender. But it's still an act of communication that you shape, not a transparent baring of one's soul. So don't worry about "being" a gender. Do whatever gender you want.<br /><br />(IMHO)Emmanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-46638722792755361912011-07-09T23:09:48.188-04:002011-07-09T23:09:48.188-04:00#2: I went through a whole gender-identity questi...#2: I went through a whole gender-identity questioning thing a half-dozen years ago, when I started giving in to my desire to wear skirts and other "feminine" wear.<br /><br />What I settled on:<br /><br />a. I consider myself a man, because I have a rather obviously male body, but that's all that "being a man" means to me.<br /><br />b. As for the rest of the crap that "being a man" is supposed to mean, I'm not going to worry about it. If I want to do something, and it doesn't hurt anyone (or get me into real trouble), I do it, and I don't worry (or try not to, anyway) about whether it's "for men" or "for women." I _do_ worry about being a Decent Human Being (DHB)<br /><br />c. I try not to worry about what other people think about gender (mine or anyone else's.) You can't really change other people's minds (any more than they can change mine), so as long as they're not actively interfering with me living my life, I don't argue with them.<br /><br />d. Most people don't want to know about your inner issues, anyway. All they really want to know is which pronouns and which social rules to use with you, and that you're not going to go wacko on them; any more is just TMI.AMMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39738819686744870222011-07-09T21:17:08.782-04:002011-07-09T21:17:08.782-04:00@Sneaker: Again, deliberate simplification. Focus ...@Sneaker: Again, deliberate simplification. Focus more on the things I said gender isn't than the things I said gender is.BlackHumorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00071672687796403744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-79540458408289098292011-07-09T16:11:42.820-04:002011-07-09T16:11:42.820-04:00Who other than sexists is saying that you need mor...Who other than sexists is saying that you need more than a female/male body and comfort with it to be a woman/man? You sound simply like a woman who doesn't fit completely into her society's gender role, as many people don't. I bet it's normal not to "feel womanly/manly" most of the time, since most of the time your sex isn't directly relevant to what you're doing.Alexisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-27104576250186790652011-07-09T14:40:08.445-04:002011-07-09T14:40:08.445-04:00Just want to say that you're second point is s...Just want to say that you're second point is so comforting to me. I too have been having issues with defining what a woman is, but I can't decide on declaring myself something else.<br /><br />For me there's a really weird feeling that somehow by doing that I'd be diminishing the struggles of people who are very sure in their genderlessness. I'd feel like a fake. But maybe that's just because I'm at such a stage of uncertainty.LiMiVuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07705514619674055207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-19538145756361780222011-07-09T12:54:41.654-04:002011-07-09T12:54:41.654-04:00which is not to say that titless folks can't a...which is not to say that titless folks can't also be women... god DAMN this is complicated, ain't it?Abbey-Kimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15252888698537995052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-82350895577072622862011-07-09T12:51:28.435-04:002011-07-09T12:51:28.435-04:00I feel the same way about my gender. I'm (most...I feel the same way about my gender. I'm (mostly) okay with my lady-body, but in terms of my gender psychology, I primarily identify as just plain ole "human." <br /><br />My gender is fluid, and it changes with context. When I'm affixing cabinets to the wall, I identify as a man. When I'm talking about my <i>feelings</i>, I identify as a woman. And sometimes I identify as a dyke or a fag too, which further complicates things. It's just a way of talking about the fact that we are all multidimensional, blends of different proportions of gender. <br /><br />My advice is that you don't overthink it. If they've defined gender so rigidly that ACTUAL, REAL-LIFE humans can't be women anymore, that's their problem. Let's storm their lady clubhouse, screaming, <i>I got a pair of tits, motherfuckers, now let me into your shitty club. </i>Abbey-Kimmyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15252888698537995052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5999121375192932592011-07-09T11:37:15.193-04:002011-07-09T11:37:15.193-04:00I'm unnerved by how many commenters are sugges...I'm unnerved by how many commenters are suggesting rules of thumb for *discovering* what gender you are, as though there's definitely one right answer.<br /><br />Which I know is how some people work, and that for a lot of trans people, the idea that there might be a Definite True Answer about their gender other than the externally-imposed one is a huge fucking deal.<br /><br />But for some people it's more changeable!<br /><br />I think of myself as bisexual, but it's always felt like being both straight and queer-- not 50/50, just "both". I also think of myself as genderqueer, but for a long time that felt like "neither" and I didn't know what to do with it. Trying on a "both" style of gender means being different in different settings AND THAT'S FINE.<br /><br />So I dunno, I think you should take your idea #2 seriously, but that doesn't mean "taking the plunge". Just try it out.S. Trewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01991691487938292120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-25911727473829336852011-07-09T11:05:55.467-04:002011-07-09T11:05:55.467-04:00BlackHumor: Ignore all the cultural bullshit about...BlackHumor: <i>Ignore all the cultural bullshit about pinkness and dresses and just concentrate on whether you like your vagina or not. If you do like it, you're a woman.</i><br /><br />Many people commented on this already, but I want to add that I like my vagina, and I am definitely a man.<br /><br /><i>I don't think you can say universally across all trans people that (biological) gender doesn't have anything to do with how comfortable you are with your penis (/vagina).</i><br /><br />Nobody said this. Instead, people said gender cannot be reduced to how one feels about one's body. Trans people might feel body dysphoria more often than others, yes, but all trans people do not want to change all their sex characteristics, nor are all people who want to change theirs trans.Sneakernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-51363481117897748362011-07-09T10:27:41.820-04:002011-07-09T10:27:41.820-04:00If your primary problem is that you can't cons...If your primary problem is that you can't consciously justify identifying as female, that doesn't necessarily mean you aren't emotionally more comfortable identifying as female. I have a friend who experimented with identifying as trans for a little while, and decided she was a cis butch lesbian after all. Mentally experimenting can work up to a point, but I really believe in using experiences. As a trans person, there is no mistaking the feeling of going from a gender identity that doesn't fit you to one that does. It feels like you've been forced to wear clothes too small or too large all your life, and suddenly you're wearing clothes that actually fit. I can't pretend that I can consciously identify what makes up gender, but when you've hit on a gender that fits you, you know. So I'd suggest asking Rowdy and Sprite to use ungendered language for you, like gender neutral pronouns and exclusively use "person" instead of "girl." Compare how that feels to how being called "she" and "girl" feels. If you decide there isn't enough of a difference to officially identify as genderless, thats fine. You did an experiment and got some results.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-52917718888174086122011-07-09T08:29:15.580-04:002011-07-09T08:29:15.580-04:00You could always fall back on "I used to be a...You could always fall back on "I used to be a woman, and I learned a lot. Let me tell you . . . "Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15824445546892392815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-3767308503498101132011-07-09T00:04:41.803-04:002011-07-09T00:04:41.803-04:00Probably it does come down to what you say, Fizz--...<i>Probably it does come down to what you say, Fizz--a change more in self-perception than in presentation.</i><br /><br />Well, yeah! If you have to change <i>yourself</i> to match some arbitrary definition of a gender, the hell good is it? As my mom likes to say, they make the clothes to fit the person, not the person to fit the clothes; if one of them is wrong, it ain't you. :)Fizzhttp://www.labcoatlingerie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-80415276307235697582011-07-08T23:22:42.176-04:002011-07-08T23:22:42.176-04:00As for #2, I have kind of pondered the same thing....As for #2, I have kind of pondered the same thing. I pretty much decided my definition of "woman" includes everything I am, including when I am masculine or in drag or whatever. A lot of the time I guess you could say I'm a butch woman, and sometimes I'm more of a femme woman, but I always identify with "woman". "Man" or "genderqueer" or what have you are just not terms I feel describe me. But gender is such a personal thing. I feel like in the end it is just what ever term you're most comfortable with.<br /><br />Also, I feel like I should mention that it's clear not everyone here is as educated on gender issues as everyone else, and I am kind of being put off by the way those people are being treated. I don't think anyone here has said "gender SHOULD BE THIS WAY FOR EVERYONE", just "this is what gender is to me", and have mostly been well-meaning, so lashing out and telling them to shut up is kind of uncalled for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-83497238837994844282011-07-08T21:16:00.897-04:002011-07-08T21:16:00.897-04:00My sister went a year without declaring her gender...My sister went a year without declaring her gender online - you know, for stuff you sign up for. There was a lot she couldn't do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-16694938547115676892011-07-08T19:56:12.125-04:002011-07-08T19:56:12.125-04:00Oh, missed this:
@perversecowgirl: See an expert,...Oh, missed this:<br /><br />@perversecowgirl: See an expert, I have no idea.BlackHumorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00071672687796403744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-85485134703426910852011-07-08T19:54:17.181-04:002011-07-08T19:54:17.181-04:00@UL, from way up the thread: I was aware it wasn&#...@UL, from way up the thread: I was aware it wasn't quite that simple, and I was wondering whether to mention it, but eventually I decided it was too much in detail and some trans person is probably going to make the correction anyway.<br /><br />So, uh, thank you for making the correction, but I don't think you can say universally across all trans people that (biological) gender doesn't have anything to do with how comfortable you are with your penis (/vagina).BlackHumorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00071672687796403744noreply@blogger.com