tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post581616275702091910..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: "Is this spot taken?"Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger131125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26745954189439303832013-03-14T23:49:46.648-04:002013-03-14T23:49:46.648-04:00Wrong, wrong, wrong, all wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, all wrong. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-39269020631400380852013-03-14T23:44:47.919-04:002013-03-14T23:44:47.919-04:00Yes, it says you're property.
I got hit on b...Yes, it says you're property. <br /><br />I got hit on by a creepy taxi driver many years ago. He asked if I'd go out with him; I said no. "Why, are you taken?" he asked. Even allowing for the language barrier (he was not a native speaker) it said pretty clearly where he was coming from, with a heavy implication of "Why else would you turn down someone you've spoken to from the back seat of a taxi for all of 1.5 minutes?"<br /><br />My answer to him was "No, I'm just not giving." Surprisingly enough, it shut him up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-68323423144542975702012-03-11T21:00:00.396-04:002012-03-11T21:00:00.396-04:00So... where's the respect for celibacy/lack of...So... where's the respect for celibacy/lack of interest, etc.?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-40288896788339162432012-01-21T06:10:03.962-05:002012-01-21T06:10:03.962-05:00Thanks for this post, it's given me a lot to t...Thanks for this post, it's given me a lot to think about. <br /><br />I've always chalked up the "Do you have a boyfriend?" line to: If a guy that I don't know is approaching me, it's likely because he finds me physically attractive and so he would either like to date me or have sex with me. As such, he wants to know if I have a boyfriend in order to know whether or not he should waste his "efforts" on me. <br /><br />That sounds pretty horrible now that I've written it out. Personally, I've never had a man approach me and say, "I saw you from across the room and thought, 'Wow, that girl looks like she'd make an amazing friend.'" ;)<br /><br />And if I answer "yes" to the boyfriend question, it's incredibly rare for a man to want to continue talking to me (so, I suppose to these men, I'm only worth getting to know if I'm romantically or sexually available). Their response is usually either "Oh... Sorry to bother you then." or they take it as a challenge to try to get with me anyway, often trying to make themselves look better than my partner (who they know nothing about), or by saying things like, "Well, he doesn't have to find out."<br /><br />But if I'm interested in getting to know the guy who asks better, as a woman in a poly relationship, I feel the need to follow my "yes" up with an explanation, since "Yes, I have a boyfriend" in a mono-normative society is generally taken as "I'm not interested." Unfortunately, explaining that I'm in a nonmonogamous relationship often translates into the guy's mind as either a) "Oh, she's a slut, I'm not interested." (well, that's a little unfair, I'm sure some of them are looking for monogamous woman, but don't necessarily think nonomonogamy = slutty); or b) "Oh, she's a slut, I'm definitely getting laid tonight!" and hardly ever "I'd like to get to know this woman better and see where it takes us."<br /><br />So, when you said that "yes" is a partial answer, and that they've asked the wrong question, that really resonated with me. <br /><br />Having a boyfriend doesn't mean that I'm not interested, and not having a boyfriend doesn't mean that I am.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-66307337728980278962011-11-18T00:20:22.891-05:002011-11-18T00:20:22.891-05:00I thought of this post when I read one of the arti...I thought of this post when I read one of the articles about the woman who came forward accusing Herman Cain of sexual harassment, and a news article said that her telling him to stop included "I have a boyfriend," as if having a boyfriend would be the best reason you wouldn't want to be sexually assaulted when you're trying to network. (See, for example http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fourth-woman-accuses-herman-cain-sexual-harassment/story?id=14896935#.TsXqQ_L3I-A)Agneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11523545859293442992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-24739305409040013852011-09-30T16:09:50.438-04:002011-09-30T16:09:50.438-04:00For me personally, I do generally check if people ...For me personally, I do generally check if people are in a relationship before I hit on them, although I try to be more subtle about it. I'm not particularly interested in a poly arrangement at this point in my life, so even if you might sleep with other people, I don't want to sleep with someone who has a boyfriend. I see someone being single as a prerequisite, not as the only criteria.<br /><br />I do find it disappointing that girls have to work so hard to convince guys when they're not interested. Saying "No thanks" really should be just as compelling as "I'm taken". I figure if a girl isn't interested in me, I've got better things to do than argue with her about it, I'm moving on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-56626951121447708852011-09-14T14:50:22.455-04:002011-09-14T14:50:22.455-04:00If it were me I'd just say "I think you&#...If it were me I'd just say "I think you're really hot and would totally have sex with you, if you're up for it." Then I'd let the expression on the person's face dictate whether I added a qualifier like "...But if you're not into it, that's cool too" or "I don't necessarily mean <i>now</i>, but, you know, in general. For now, maybe just coffee?"<br /><br />And after the person accepted but before any sex took place, I'd make sure they understood I wasn't looking for a relationship.<br /><br />Admittedly, this is probably easier for a woman to say to a man than vice-versa, but I think a guy could pull it off (I'd be fine with a guy approaching me this way, for instance). The key is to sound sincere but nonchalant - if you approach the person while leering and staring and seeming really overwrought, it's gonna look like your entire well-being depends on their answer - or like you're so intent on getting what you want that you won't take no for an answer. Neither of those things is a good look.perversecowgirlhttp://www.perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-44595398850952306692011-09-14T09:09:09.212-04:002011-09-14T09:09:09.212-04:00Hm ... I can't think of a non-crude way of ask...Hm ... I can't think of a non-crude way of asking "would you like to have casual sex?" (or (would you like to have coffee as a way of, as it were, feeling each other out, and then have casual sex if the auspices are right?") If what you want is a capital-R Relationship, you can ask "would you like to go to dinner X night?" But if you're out for a hookup or a fling or FWB or an explicitly non-serious relationship, and you're not in a millieu that is good for that sort of thing (bar, OKCupid, Craigslist, etc.) I don't know the phrasing, though I'm sure some exist.<br /><br />That said, I do know "do you have a boyfriend?" isn't it.<br /><br /><br><br />I guess if the person reacts badly to "do you want to grab a cup of coffee and see if we're compatible enough for casual sex?" the answer was "no" anyway.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-70925879194281284702011-09-13T14:59:04.881-04:002011-09-13T14:59:04.881-04:00Korbl: as I, and I think several other people, hav...Korbl: as I, and I think several other people, have already said in this thread: if you want to know if someone will have sex with you or date you, <i>ask them</i>.<br /><br />Disclaimer: I don't see anything wrong with <i>stealthily</i> ascertaining a person's relationship status. I've done this when I liked a guy; I'm as afraid of rejection as anyone else, and most romantic relationships <i>are</i> monogamous, so if the guy I like has a partner already then I won't hit on him (and if he's single, obviously that doesn't make him a sure thing...but he's at least <i>more</i> likely to say yes than if he were relationshipped).<br /><br />But outright asking someone "Do you have a boyfriend/girlfriend?" is not the amazing subtle awkwardness-saving tactic that guys on this thread seem to think it is. Women all know goddamn well that the question means you're hitting on us, so you're still putting yourself out there emotionally. If we happen to be single but not interested in you, we then have to decide whether to invent a boyfriend, tell you we don't have a boyfriend (knowing full well that you're probably about to ask us out and we'll have to shoot you down and it will be painfully awkward), or tell you "I'm single but I don't find you attractive" (and when someone makes a come-on that's all veiled in metaphors and shit, it feels really...rude, or something, to burst through the bubble of obfuscation and explain your feelings in plain language).<br /><br />Frankly, I think the whole little dance of subterfuge inherent in "do you have a boyfriend?" actually makes things way more complicated and overwrought than they need to be, for exactly the reasons I've outlined above. "DO YOU WANT TO DATE ME Y/N" is so beautifully and refreshingly simple! ...At least, it is when the guy <i>actually accepts</i> a "no."perversecowgirlhttp://www.perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-12402398883645297322011-09-13T03:46:46.189-04:002011-09-13T03:46:46.189-04:00Well, it's not intentionally meant as a "...Well, it's not intentionally meant as a "are you owned" kind of thing, it's meant as "are you available?" Not to argue with the undercurrent, because I'll admit it's there.<br />Alright, I can really only speak for myself, but when I try to find out the relationship status of someone I'm attracted to, it's because I'm curious as to whether they're available.<br /><br />But if it's tacky/implies ownership/otherwise unpleasant, please, tell me a better way to phrase the implied "would you maybe be willing to have sex with me?" Because I need to know. It's not like I go around hitting on people (I generally figure I'm too hideous and pathetic for anything but derisive laughter), but I would like to know a good way to phrase the query that generally won't offend the people I'm asking.Valravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18366645064031131125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-41427656407691469302011-09-10T00:37:58.300-04:002011-09-10T00:37:58.300-04:00Holly: I'm delurking to tell you I'm glad ...Holly: I'm delurking to tell you I'm glad you wrote about this, especially given what's happened to me as of late.<br /><br />The people dismissing this as an overreaction don't seem to understand that, overall, a person's feelings being hurt by their intended target not responding to inquiries that ignore their autonomy and render them someone else's territory is the best-case scenario. People who think they can convince you to change your mind may not stop so long as they think there are or will be more opportunities for them to lean on you. They do not listen to you saying that you are not interested, no matter how direct or polite you are. <br /><br />If you're at work, they may hound you until you have to run away in such a fashion that it interferes with your duties. They may try to use your job function to put themselves in your way to give themselves more opportunity to verbally--and physically--harass you. They may try to follow you in to isolated "employees only" areas claiming you led them there to make good on your "tease." They may go to your supervisor to complain about your interpersonal/customer service skills because you became progressively more aggressive in verbally defending yourself if you could not get help. They occasionally threaten to harm you for being a stuck up bitch and wait for you after your shift is over. If you're lucky, the sun's up, the area is well-lit, or you can walk to your vehicle using the buddy system. If you can't do these things, take alternate transportation, or walk, they turn up everywhere you go. The smart ones put some time between encounters so it looks like a coincidence they keep running in to you.<br /><br />In social situations, they do not care if you say you are taken and that your friends (even if they are friends with their friends and can be trusted) corroborate what you say. They will put more stock in what they (or their friends) think you should do, especially if it means it ends in them getting laid. They will wait until they think you are alone or compromised so they can try again. Enthusiastic yes (YES, I'm happy with my situation. YES, I'm sure. YES, I'm not interested in you. YES, we cannot go on a date together. YES, you're wasting your time.) and enthusiastic no (NO, I'm not interested. NO, you cannot go home with me. NO, I don't care that you've wanted to all night. NO, I'm trying to sleep. NO, you shouldn't be in here. NO, I don't want to have sex with you. NO, I will not "take care of that" for you. NO, I don't want to do this. NO, I'm in fact I'm REALLY SURE I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. YOU NEED TO LEAVE.) leave little to the imagination. He still thought he was going to change my mind. What drove him off after he'd "teasingly" said he would cover my mouth so I couldn't scream for help while he sat on my chest was the promise of violence (amputation by canine teeth if he tried to go through with making me give him head). This nice guy (TM) tried to assault me because his faith in his ability to convince me and his right to hit on me were more important than what I had to say about the whole thing.<br /><br />tl;dr: This "shorthand" some people are saying is okay has serious fucking implications and can lead to all kinds of hurt for the people it's being used on because of a lack of basic respect for a person's "no."Digital Coyotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-3821284045518285942011-09-07T15:54:15.789-04:002011-09-07T15:54:15.789-04:009:52 anon, cars are seldom sentient; boyfriends of...9:52 anon, cars are seldom sentient; boyfriends often are.<br /><br />If someone asked me if I had a girlfriend I'd like to think my answer would be "why?" but I'd probably be too startled.Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-21366999830981822372011-09-07T12:53:47.589-04:002011-09-07T12:53:47.589-04:00All of this meandering just sounds like men are a ...All of this meandering just sounds like men are a bunch of cowards who use a boyfriend as "a way to create seperation between them and the woman of their interest" and in doing do completely disrespect a woman's autonomy and are still asking the wrong question. It doesn't matter if I have a boyfriend; I think that's a lazy, half-assed way to approach me, it's fucking cowardly and I'm still not interestedChihttp://tranceforme.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-71752734625503480212011-09-06T23:00:01.466-04:002011-09-06T23:00:01.466-04:00To put my objection more plainly: the question &qu...To put my objection more plainly: the question "do you have a boyfriend" is completely irrelevant when what you actually want to know is "are you interested in me?"<br /><br />If you proposition me and I turn you down, it might be because I'm in a monogamous relationship...or it might be because I find you unattractive or I dislike you as a person or you give me a weird vibe or I just broke up with someone or I'm a lesbian or I'm asexual or I'm happy being single or my friend has a crush on you and already privately called "dibs".<br /><br />The implication of hitting on me with the line "do you have a boyfriend?" is that the only thing that would stop me from fucking you is a pre-existing relationship - not, you know, me just <i>not wanting to fuck you</i>. And I don't really dig having my opinions ignored like that.perversecowgirlhttp://www.perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-26207187830038412882011-09-06T22:33:25.069-04:002011-09-06T22:33:25.069-04:00Anon 9:52: if someone asks "do you have a car...Anon 9:52: if someone asks "do you have a car?" it's because they want the car for something (they want to borrow it, they want you to drive them somewhere, etc.).<br /><br />If someone asks "do you have a boyfriend?" it's not because they want the boyfriend for something; it's because they want <i>you</i> for something (dating and/or fucking). <br /><br />At worst, this <i>does</i> imply ownership. At best, it's the fucking stupidest and most roundabout way of asking "would you like to go out with me?" EVAR. Either way, I don't like it.<br /><br />(Please note that I know it's possible to ask about someone's romantic or vehicular status in other contexts, but obviously I'm not talking about "How will you get to the cottage? Do you have a car?" or "Do you have a boyfriend, 'cause he's welcome to come to the movie too" here. I'm specifically talking about those times when we ask stuff out of self-interest).perversecowgirlhttp://www.perversecowgirl.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-80785636180629731172011-09-06T21:52:34.081-04:002011-09-06T21:52:34.081-04:00It's interesting the way the ownership is assu...It's interesting the way the ownership is assumed, based on the question.<br />a) Do you have a boyfriend?<br />No.<br /><br />b) Do you have a car?<br />No.<br />--<br />At least, I wouldn't assume they're asking if a car owns you based on that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-44853611093334752252011-09-06T18:31:09.680-04:002011-09-06T18:31:09.680-04:00It's tempting to say "I've got three!...It's tempting to say "I've got three!" or some other variation of a smartass response.<br />To clarify my previous comment, I'm not disagreeing with others saying that women's sexuality is still viewed as owned by men by a large portion of society. I think the assumption that finding a boyfriend is a woman's top priority is just another aspect of that.Apricotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-73151133938892662162011-09-06T17:22:41.075-04:002011-09-06T17:22:41.075-04:00Excellent post, Holly, and I really appreciate a l...Excellent post, Holly, and I really appreciate a lot of the comments that back it up. (Including the part about this comment thread weirdly mirroring the original scenario.) So, any good suggestions on what we *can* say in response to "hey baby, got a boyfriend?" (assuming I can't do the "overlord" line with a straight face)?<br /><br />I usually just say I have a boyfriend. But now I'm thinking maybe a generic "No, thanks" in the same way I'd deal with a bothersome street-solicitor, whether or not it actually fit the question.<br /><br />flightlessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-34741366719494922782011-09-06T17:04:06.788-04:002011-09-06T17:04:06.788-04:00Apricot: I think a lot of people (still!) kind of ...Apricot: I think a lot of people (still!) kind of believe that women's sexuality belongs to men. So, if a woman has a boyfriend or husband, other guys (mostly) stay away; if she's single and/or a lesbian, she's fair game.<br /><br />And of course if she's dressed in something revealing (or is fully covered but a guy can still kind of make out the shape of her body and he happens to find that shape alluring) then clearly she is inviting sex. With anyone and everyone she passes. She doesn't get to pick and choose, because her sexuality is not her own.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-78805402753030244672011-09-06T16:40:29.319-04:002011-09-06T16:40:29.319-04:00What Anonymous Troll said on Sept 4 at 8:19. I fee...What Anonymous Troll said on Sept 4 at 8:19. I feel an underlying assumption y'all are missing is that if you are a woman and don't have a boyfriend, then your top priority in life is to get one.<br />This must be why this post reminded me of receiving comments along the lines of "I can't believe someone as pretty as you is single" on a non-dating (!) social networking website (and I'm no model). It's like my wishes don't even enter the equation. Some male out there must have found me attractive enough to date, so it's inconceivable I chose to stay single rather than pick him.Apricotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5607297652416523282011-09-06T15:58:06.815-04:002011-09-06T15:58:06.815-04:00Wow, loads of the commenters here are big lying di...Wow, loads of the commenters here are big lying disingenuous fibbers more invested in protecting their unpleasant social advantages than having equal and respectful relationships with women.<br /><br />There's a reason men who harass me on the street don't do so when I'm holding my boyfriend's hand. And it's not because they respect me.EmilyBitesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-75540477279191468552011-09-06T12:05:14.788-04:002011-09-06T12:05:14.788-04:00@pasthurt: Same; when I had a boyfriend, I decided...@pasthurt: Same; when I had a boyfriend, I decided not to use him as an excuse either. My usual answer was, "Yes, and I'm not interested in having another one." Establishes both that I'm not owned and that I'm not interested. :P<br /><br />Of course, there's something to be said for @Tam's answer: "Fuck off." Short, sweet, and to the point. <3heterodoxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-30349281728577737112011-09-06T09:50:26.034-04:002011-09-06T09:50:26.034-04:00I've decided, for the good of humankind, that ...I've decided, for the good of humankind, that I'll never use a husband or a boyfriend as an excuse ever again. I do have a wedding ring, but most of the guys that don't respect my vague umcomfortableness don't notice things like that. The problem is - they don't even ask if I have a boyfriend or not - they just keep on pushing... for something. And it doesn't matter how much I give them shit, how much I say no, I'm not interested. Unless there's a man with me, I'll probably have to change tables/walk to the next bus stop/talk to the manager to throw them out. Last time we, three married ladies, ended up leaving the place early. I guess my tough, mean, men-eating skills need some improving before my "no" will count for anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-69963964549918477392011-09-06T09:32:41.451-04:002011-09-06T09:32:41.451-04:00I got this at work just recently from some drunk g...I got this at work just recently from some drunk guy, clearly I wasn't being nice enough for him (I am so full of sunshine at work I have been called obnoxiously cheerful) so he demanded to know if I was "married or something" and when I answered with a "none of your business" he tried some bullshit where he wasn't going to pay for his goods, I told him that I was sorry that we couldn't help him with his shopping today, and he proceeded to look hurt like I was the one being a jerk!Leah Jaclynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-32540975489567540472011-09-06T00:18:12.284-04:002011-09-06T00:18:12.284-04:00I doubt anyone is shot down for being too direct. ...I doubt anyone is shot down for being too direct. It's possible that asking directly will lead to being shot down, but generally in those circumstances asking indirectly will too, unless we're talking so indirect that we no longer call it "indirectness" and instead call it "dishonesty."<br /><br />I'll be honest, it took me a long time to learn this. So you may genuinely not know. But to persist in not knowing after people have explained it to you and given examples out of personal experience is a different matter.<br /><br /><a href="http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-so-many-words.html" rel="nofollow">"The way to say a thing is to simply say it, and whether things go your way or not (sometimes really not), at least you know what the hell is going on."</a>Hershele Ostropolernoreply@blogger.com