tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post8053585355600585152..comments2024-03-22T05:55:48.117-04:00Comments on The Pervocracy: Like sex? Dare to talk about it? UNCLE TOM!Cliff Pervocracyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-77123468223357997422008-03-30T00:09:00.000-04:002008-03-30T00:09:00.000-04:00Holly: I love that Eleanor Roosevelt quote! (And...Holly: I love that Eleanor Roosevelt quote! (And Ann Landers' variation on it: no one can take advantage of you without your consent.)<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Curiousblue: Yeah, I figured Sean was atypical - there was at least one, and maybe a couple, of others who were arguing from an apparently-somewhat-similar POV, but who didn't use much obvious "Old Left" terminology and may well not have been aware of it as a source of some of their ideas.<BR/><BR/>I used "Marxist" more as a way to distinguish the "we can fix other things after the revolution" theme from non-revolution-centred leftishness which still has a strong association with the feminist movement (heck, I'm an example of it myself, in a way), than to refer to conscious Marxism.<BR/><BR/>SunflowerSunflowerPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069913788437731669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-59165030104969951402008-03-29T10:55:00.000-04:002008-03-29T10:55:00.000-04:00More and more it seems like radical feminism is th...More and more it seems like radical feminism is the radical notion that radical feminists are people.<BR/><BR/>Other women, well... not their fault or anything, but they just aren't fully <I>conscious</I> of their world, the poor dears.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-48880634032544911282008-03-29T03:14:00.000-04:002008-03-29T03:14:00.000-04:00The funny thing is, according to the radfems we al...The funny thing is, according to the radfems we all suffer from false consciousness because of what the "patriarchy makes us think". Yet, strangely enough, radical feminism somehow magically stands outside of this all-encompassing system, has figured out The Truth, and as such, is in a position to tell everybody else to examine their shit, until they too arrive at this same Truth.<BR/><BR/>I'd love to know what radical feminism's story of special revelation is. Did Andrea Dworkin hear a voice from a burning bush one day back in the 70s?<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, back in the mundane world, there's some rather <A HREF="http://nataliaantonova.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/evangelical-thats-more-apt-than-you-may-think-twisty/" REL="nofollow">uncomfortable resemblance between the rhetoric of radical feminism and that of rather old-school patriarchs</A>. But no, I'm sure its only superficial. Radical feminist consciousness is, after all, completely above and beyond having any cultural influence of the patriarchy.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-15934818799762930022008-03-29T01:42:00.000-04:002008-03-29T01:42:00.000-04:00Lara - I think we're massively misunderstanding ea...Lara - I think we're massively misunderstanding each other's positions. I'm going to use direct quotes instead of paraphrases because I know I have a tendency to hyperbole and sarcasm when I try to rephrase other people's arguments.<BR/><BR/><I>First of all Holly, you are dripping with white privilege to totally ignore my point about the objectification of black men.</I><BR/>You know, I wouldn't mind the objectification of black men if white men were objectified more. Trying to eliminate objectification is impossible--it's too damned close to trying to eliminate sexual arousal, because there will always be people I see who turn me on but I don't have the chance to get to know as persons. So better to objectify everyone equally, and make objectification something that happens to individuals rather than classes.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and please don't try to make me feel morally inferior for being white; certainly there's anything <I>superior</I> about it but I didn't automatically become an oppressor just by being born.<BR/><BR/><I> you believe in this abstract world where there's a "marketplace of ideas" and everyone "equally chooses" what position they want to be in.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know how scare quotes refute the idea that open discussion tends to lead to better ideas than some moral authority pre-picking the good ones. And of <I>course</I> I don't believe everyone can choose to be in any position, that's absurd--but I think they should be able to make the most of the choices they do have.<BR/><BR/><I>Patriarchy is systematic, not some little fad that goes in and out of style.</I><BR/>It is. But I won't hide my tits because the patriarchy might think I'm a dirty slut, <I>and</I> I won't hide my tits because I'm afraid the patriarchy might like it a little too much. Sometimes seeming to ignore the patriarchy can actually be a very good way to say "fuck the patriarchy."<BR/><BR/><I> Second of all, wake up and realize that it's the patriarchy making you think you have to flash your tits to be empowered, and that the only way to, or the main way, to define sexuality, is under patriarchal terms. </I><BR/><BR/>No. You, not living in my head, cannot tell <I>me</I> why I think my own thoughts. You are just not that psychic. I flash my tits because I <I>like it</I>, and if you respect me at all you have to take my word on that.<BR/><BR/><I>You state things as universal then claim they are "only" personal.</I><BR/>Like what? I'm gonna need quotes here if you want me to clarify my position.<BR/><BR/><I>What about black people who performed blackface in those vaudeville shows then? Did that "empower" them or serve the cause for black rights just because they CHOSE to be in those vaudeville shows? Because they're "individuals"? C'mon.</I><BR/><BR/>So you would have told black people what to do? Because you knew what was best for them? (Also, black people didn't perform in blackface...)<BR/><BR/><I> Twisty and feminists like her are not shaming YOU Holly, they are criticizing a whole damned power structure that makes women think they have to be meat envelopes to feel worthy, and that makes men think that women exist for their "sexual needs."</I><BR/><BR/>See, when you call me a "meat envelope", I feel a little shamed right there. Also when you tell me that my actions stem don't stem from my own decisions even when I say they do--there's that psychic thing again.<BR/><BR/><BR/>And there's more to say but I have to go to work. Seeya in the morning.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-50638798382225810822008-03-29T00:49:00.000-04:002008-03-29T00:49:00.000-04:00I don't like coming off this way on someone's own ...I don't like coming off this way on someone's own blog, but I am getting very frustrated with this.<BR/>First of all Holly, you are dripping with white privilege to totally ignore my point about the objectification of black men. Your white privilege is apparent because you can't even see the connection between sexism and racism: you believe in this abstract world where there's a "marketplace of ideas" and everyone "equally chooses" what position they want to be in. Bullshit. You might want to look up the definition of the term "systematic." Patriarchy is systematic, not some little fad that goes in and out of style. Second of all, wake up and realize that it's the patriarchy making you think you have to flash your tits to be empowered, and that the only way to, or the main way, to define sexuality, is under patriarchal terms. You first say that sex is by definition BDSM and giving oral sex, then you turn around and say you are not defining it as such. You state things as universal then claim they are "only" personal.<BR/>What about black people who performed blackface in those vaudeville shows then? Did that "empower" them or serve the cause for black rights just because they CHOSE to be in those vaudeville shows? Because they're "individuals"? C'mon.<BR/><BR/>Holly said:<BR/>"(Seriously, you don't see the connection between people saying "sexyfeminists are ruining things for the good girls!" and plain old-fashioned slut-shaming?)"<BR/><BR/>Who the hell ever called you a "slut"? Who ever said radical feminists were prudes or "good girls"?? YOU! Only you, Holly (and the Patriarchy, perhaps). In fact, men like you a whole hell of a lot better for actually thinking you get empowerment points every time you suck dick. Because as long as it serves them in the end and doesn't hurt their male privilege they like it. Men HATE radical feminists precisely because we do not base all of our worth on what they want and perceive. Twisty and feminists like her are not shaming YOU Holly, they are criticizing a whole damned power structure that makes women think they have to be meat envelopes to feel worthy, and that makes men think that women exist for their "sexual needs."<BR/>Seriously, I am barely 23 years old and I am already just amazed at how much you deny the CULTURE we live in. All radical feminists are asking is that we all, including you, reflect on the ways in which we capitulate to the patriarchy in our everyday lives, yes, even in the bedroom. How does that amount to "trying to control women's sexuality"? How? Prove it, if you are going to argue it. <BR/>In fact it appears to me that you passive-aggressively imply that women who simply do not want to have traditional sex with men, or sex with men period, are "prudes" or "self-restricting." WTF? Calling a woman a "prude" is the flipside of calling a woman a "slut." And the only one who has even implicated using those terms or concepts to describe other feminists or women is YOU. So stop trying to shove words in other people's mouths.<BR/>I think you have a very hard time dealing with how all-encompassing patriarchy is, even in your own personal life (it does in everyone's) and I sort of can't blame you. It's depressing as hell. But you know what? I'd rather be honest with myself than lie to myself.<BR/>Oh, also look up the word "context."Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11788454609950093117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-74567476272107486312008-03-28T00:10:00.000-04:002008-03-28T00:10:00.000-04:00Anonymous - I guess the thing is, whether you beli...Anonymous - I guess the thing is, whether you believe in God or not <I>is</I> irrelevant, to good people. And do you really want to live your life catering to bad people? Except for the things where I physically <I>can't</I> do as I please (i.e., post naked pictures under my real name and then get a job), I feel like living as if the patriarchy <I>doesn't</I> control me is a very effective way to say "fuck you" to the patriarchy. Being modest because you're afraid patriarchs will look down on you, or conversely because you think they'll like your sexuality a little <I>too</I> much, both seem like capitulation to me.<BR/><BR/>And when a member of an oppressed group (yeek, I feel uncomfortable calling myself that, but you know what I mean, a woman) is accused of appeasing the oppressors, I think "Uncle Tom" is a fair expression to use.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-75966676681303747162008-03-27T23:48:00.001-04:002008-03-27T23:48:00.001-04:00Sunflowerp -I don't post on my own blog much anymo...Sunflowerp -<BR/><BR/>I don't post on my own blog much anymore, as I've most of my blogging activity is now on <A HREF="http://bppa.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Blog of Pro-Porn Activism</A>. However, I too will be participating in the Carnival (in fact, I'll probably write the post tonight) and that will be on the <A HREF="http://iacb.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">IACB</A> blog.<BR/><BR/>Re: Marxist strain in feminism – I don't think many radfems would describe themselves as "Marxist", in fact, radical feminism arose in the late '60s/early '70s as a reaction against the male-dominated/traditional sex role-oriented Marxist milieu. Of course, radical feminism quickly evolved in its own right into something that rivaled most Marxist-Leninist sects in its sheer authoritarianism and dogmatism. (Basically, it paralleled the devolution of much of the "New Left" into something as dogmatic and authoritarian as the "Old Left".)<BR/><BR/>And actually, if you look at early sex-positive feminism, among its founders there were actually many socialist feminists and a few founding radical feminists (notably <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Willis" REL="nofollow">Ellen Willis</A>, who coined the term "pro-sex feminism"). Somebody like "Sean" over at the "I love men" thread is, I believe, actually rather unrepresentative of socialist feminists on the issue of sex work.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-60443885654211831812008-03-27T23:48:00.000-04:002008-03-27T23:48:00.000-04:00So while I deeply wish that the personal was 100% ...So while I deeply wish that the personal was 100% personal in sex and politics and pretty much any other aspect of life (for instance I really wish it wasn't relevant to anyone whether I believe in any kind of god or not), I know I don't live or act in a vacuum and it's dangerous to pretend otherwise. Of course I'll still do things I enjoy, but I'll do my damnedest to know the social and political and historical contexts and suchforth in which I'm acting and blahdilalalah. All of which is just to say: I really wish you'd chosen a different phrasing for the title of this post, what with all the nasty history and identity politics all wrapped up in the phrase "Uncle Tom."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-43390091179428467662008-03-27T23:22:00.000-04:002008-03-27T23:22:00.000-04:00Sunflower - Another slogan that's come to mind lat...Sunflower - Another slogan that's come to mind lately is "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."<BR/><BR/>And if you enjoy reading kerfluffles there's yet more <A HREF="http://easypersiflage.com/blameforum/index.php?topic=4656.0" REL="nofollow">here</A>. Shame I can't post there, but I suppose there's nothing I could say that would be productive anyway.<BR/><BR/>Still, it's bizarre as all hell to see people to saying "No one that crazy could be for <I>real</I>, I call troll," because I stated that sex is personal rather than political. I mean, uh... wow. You'd think I'd said the Earth was flat.Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-55680295442235656972008-03-27T23:20:00.000-04:002008-03-27T23:20:00.000-04:00Curiousblue: Wups, just re-checked dates on posts...Curiousblue: Wups, just re-checked dates on posts - it appears that the only point in bookmarking your blog is to read archives.<BR/><BR/>S.SunflowerPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069913788437731669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-10273016478861095542008-03-27T23:15:00.000-04:002008-03-27T23:15:00.000-04:00Labrat - The control-of-others thing is one of the...Labrat - The control-of-others thing is one of the aspects of all this that I'm musing about on my LJ; I just haven't got to that bit yet.<BR/><BR/>Dw3t-hthr - Heya! This is probably a blog you'll want to read from time to time. As soon as Holly mentioned that slogan/aphorism, I thought, "Gotta post the link!"; I'm tickled (but not even remotely surprised) that you beat me to it.<BR/><BR/>Curiousblue - Thanks for the heads-up about the Carnival! That's one I'm definitely interested in following and possibly in taking part in. I've also bookmarked your blog (I make a point of building connections with feminist men; also, we seem to have other political common ground) and the PPA one, so you'll likely see me around from time to time.<BR/><BR/>Holly - I'm so glad you opened this can of worms, and had the guts or thick skin or whatever it is to keep it open. I'm learning stuff that I think is important to know - f'ex, I didn't realize the Marxist strain was still this active within feminism - and I love the way that new connections are being built and existing ones reinforced by it.<BR/><BR/>SunflowerSunflowerPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069913788437731669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-5214192119621842282008-03-27T16:34:00.000-04:002008-03-27T16:34:00.000-04:00Dw3t-Hthr said:"The thing I find really mindblowin...<B>Dw3t-Hthr said</B>:<BR/><BR/><I>"The thing I find really mindblowing about the origin-period of "the personal is political" is the way the people who were using that were fighting for things like abortion to get accepted as political concerns; me, being younger, I grew up with abortion's place as a political football being taken for granted."</I><BR/><BR/>It goes back to the 1960s, when a lot of the "old left" Marxist types refused to see feminist issues as political, and instead confined them to the "personal" or, "bourgeois individualism". Ironically, this rhetoric has gone pretty much full circle in radical feminism.<BR/><BR/>This statement by AngryYoungFemme struck me as one worthy of the most brain-dead Marxist:<BR/><BR/><I>"Radical feminism is about getting to the root of misogyny and nipping it at the bud. Not taking on a branch or a leaf of the misogyny tree and trying to take the whole thing down that way. Once women are equal and respected and considered HUMAN like men are, THEN we can talk about everybody getting naked without patriarchal connotations."</I><BR/><BR/>Ah yes, come THE REVOLUTION we can finally let loose. But until then....iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-89825275258445565742008-03-27T16:15:00.000-04:002008-03-27T16:15:00.000-04:00A blog carnival, as far as I can tell, is sort of ...A blog carnival, as far as I can tell, is sort of a repeated link festival: the host has a subject of focus, people send in links to posts that are relevant to the carnival, and the host picks out the best of them to publish. Next week/month/timeperiod, the hosting moves to the next blogger down the line, and so on.<BR/><BR/>The thing I find really mindblowing about the origin-period of "the personal is political" is the way the people who were using that were fighting for things like <I>abortion</I> to get accepted as political concerns; me, being younger, I grew up with abortion's place as a political football being taken for granted.Dw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-47280412184242861152008-03-27T12:37:00.000-04:002008-03-27T12:37:00.000-04:00"And there are anti-sex people although I hadn't p...<I>"And there are anti-sex people although I hadn't previously thought of radical feminists as those people"</I><BR/><BR/>You've probably never come across Sheila Jeffreys, then.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-88272799219131047672008-03-27T12:35:00.000-04:002008-03-27T12:35:00.000-04:00Iamcuriousblue - I didn't know about that (or even...Iamcuriousblue - I didn't know about that (or even what "blog carnival" means), but I want to be part of it now! Thanks for the link!Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-45159768397952099932008-03-27T12:28:00.000-04:002008-03-27T12:28:00.000-04:00Holly – I just wanted to say I admire your chutzpa...Holly – I just wanted to say I admire your chutzpah for standing up to Twisty and her distortions. Ultimately, trying to change the rigid views of Twisty and her commentariat is basically about as productive as pissing into the wind, but I admire the effort.<BR/><BR/>BTW, have you seen this upcoming blog carnival?:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://feministsexcarnival.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">http://feministsexcarnival.blogspot.com/</A><BR/><BR/>It sounds like something that you might be interested in.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-85421955662188415712008-03-27T02:43:00.000-04:002008-03-27T02:43:00.000-04:00dw3t-hthr - Ah. That puts the quote in context. ...dw3t-hthr - Ah. That puts the quote in context. It's a way to keep politics from saying "get your personal issues out of this," but it's not a two-way street; persons are still free to say "get your politics out of this."Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-14260861775402178222008-03-27T02:18:00.000-04:002008-03-27T02:18:00.000-04:00I'll quote from the intro, as I found the line I w...I'll quote from the intro, as I found the line I was looking for right after I hit 'publish', as is the way of things:<BR/><BR/>"But they belittled us no end for trying to bring our so-called "personal problems" into the public arena - especially "all those body issues" like sex, appearance, and abortion. Our demands that men share the housework and childcare were likewise deemed a personal problem between a woman and her individual man."Dw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-47764828740290332162008-03-27T02:15:00.000-04:002008-03-27T02:15:00.000-04:00I'd like to note -- as I pass through chasing link...I'd like to note -- as I pass through chasing links around the blogworld -- that the <I>original</I> usage of 'the personal is political' was exactly opposite to how it gets used nowadays. I do think the original essay is well worth reading; I've linked it a couple of times from my place, but for ease of stuff, it's <A HREF="http://scholar.alexanderstreet.com/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=2259" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>Instead of "your personal must conform to my political", the popular implementation thereof, it was more "Don't blow off my housework disparity, my childcare concerns, my dealing with pressure to conform to beauty standards, and my concerns about having a healthy, stable, and satisfying relationship as not relevant to feminism."<BR/><BR/>People who try to get their political into my personal, who figure that -- to be on-topic for this post -- my sexuality should be subordinated to some political vision, they're going to run into my personal being <I>my</I> political, and the fact that I'm not the sort of doormat who's willing to be erased and have my legitimate "personal" concerns squelched so that I can be mowed down to make way for someone else's revolution.<BR/><BR/>"Your ideology is not my dom."<BR/><BR/>Signed,<BR/>one of the "apolitical" onesDw3t-Hthrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584245136407694660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-85313689105723187332008-03-27T01:16:00.000-04:002008-03-27T01:16:00.000-04:00Lara - I guess it's because I'm a BDSM submissive,...Lara - I guess it's because I'm a BDSM submissive, so it kinda is sex to me. But I'm certainly not saying it should be that way for everyone! Just that it should be respected as an option.<BR/><BR/>The reason I think men should be objectified (That's really a bad way to put it. "Presented sexually in the media" would be better.) is that when <I>every</I> group is presented as sexual, there's no sex class or no-sex class. Sexiness becomes a matter of individuals rather than genders.<BR/><BR/>Personal choices are more important to me than anything. "The personal is political" seems to imply that when I'm alone with my boyfriend in my own bedroom I have to act according to political goodness rather than my own desires. I don't bloody <I>think</I> so. When I submit to my boyfriend, I'm not saying "women are submissive to men," I'm saying "Holly is submissive to Brandon." The personal is <I>personal</I>.<BR/><BR/>I actually tried very hard to <I>not</I> twist her words on this post, that's why I used direct quotes. It's possible that I'm just stupid. I <I>am</I> just a silly young slut after all.<BR/><BR/><BR/>(Seriously, you don't see the connection between people saying "sexyfeminists are ruining things for the good girls!" and plain old-fashioned slut-shaming?)Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-13962717954932680802008-03-27T01:03:00.000-04:002008-03-27T01:03:00.000-04:00Why do you keep equating women in submissive roles...Why do you keep equating women in submissive roles or being in BDSM as SEX? I find that very disturbing.<BR/>I also find disturbing your saying that if we objectified men as much as we do women than it's all fine and dandy. What about men of color? They have been sexually objectified as "King Kongs" and "rapist" animals with bestial sexualities and large members who attack "lily-white" women. This stereotype has been alive and well since the days of slavery. Sexually objectifying anyone, even men of color, serves the patriarchy. <BR/>Feminism is not just about individual choices, it's about looking at the bigger picture of patriarchy and how sexism is ingrained in all aspects of our lives. It's about looking at how patriarchy, white supremacy, and classism affect EVERYONE. One of the most basic tenets of feminism is that the personal IS political.<BR/>And I just came from Twisty's and I read the whole post and read a lot of her posts and I think you REALLY twisted her words around and/or misinterpreted it. But I am not surprised as radical feminists are often made out to be "nazis" and are not understood/listened to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-79464414876930035122008-03-26T18:12:00.000-04:002008-03-26T18:12:00.000-04:00Larus - Exactly! The denial of female sexual desi...Larus - Exactly! The denial of female sexual desire (or the assumption that if women desire anything, it's gentle cunnilingus under candlelight) drives me <I>nuts</I> and it's one of the things the radfems seem to have in common with the misogynists.<BR/><BR/>I don't "pay in" blowjobs, I "get off on" blowjobs.<BR/><BR/>(Although sometimes they also make me happy emotionally, and so long as they're not my <I>only</I> route to emotional fulfillment I don't think there's anything wrong with that.)Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-33390615836749954162008-03-26T17:04:00.000-04:002008-03-26T17:04:00.000-04:00Let no one say I type-raped their private part of ...Let no one say I type-raped their private part of the net. Except Holly, I guess.<BR/><BR/>"When you aren’t paying in pro-bono blow jobs, they aren’t going to give you what you want."<BR/><BR/>Actually, folks, they're right. This "sexual manipulation," these "pro-bono blowjobs," it's just a trade, we're doing it all to get something out of the guys. Something we very much desire...<BR/><BR/>Is it approval? No. Is it popularity? No. Is it emotional fulfillment? Nope.<BR/><BR/>It's <I>sexual pleasure</I>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-31795309465761332232008-03-26T15:38:00.000-04:002008-03-26T15:38:00.000-04:00Labrat - It's absolutely true. I participated a l...Labrat - It's absolutely true. I participated a little in the comment thread in that post so now it's gone even wackier (complete with someone officiously ordering me out of their safe space, apparently I was type-raping them or something), and when they say "we just want men to stop seeing us as sexual objects," well... I think it's wrong for men to see women <I>only</I> as sexual objects but what you're talking about there ladies is castration.<BR/><BR/>(Or just massive paranoia; seems like a lot of people are posting "I can't leave the house without being constantly catcalled and propositioned and groped" and... damn, if that's true you must be a whole lot cuter than me. I mean, it's <I>happened</I>, but it's not like swarming horny men are a major problem in my life.)Cliff Pervocracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02080142422250604406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2770580070906411828.post-58084781543316255522008-03-26T15:04:00.000-04:002008-03-26T15:04:00.000-04:00I don't recall if Twisty herself supported this on...<I>I don't recall if Twisty herself supported this one, or if it was just what the commenter she was quoting said - that one cannot have control of one's sexuality unless one has control over how others respond to one. I can't see how that's attainable at all, but if it's a common POV, that would explain a lot of things.</I><BR/><BR/>If that's true, given that someone else's reaction to your sexuality is an expression of THEIR OWN sexuality, they're seeking to... control someone else's sexuality.<BR/><BR/>Which would make the contention of some men that radical feminists really just want to reverse the oppression absolutely correct, if true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com