My new Cosmo still isn't here. I know there is a new one, I've seen it in stores, but I'd feel dumb buying it in a store when I have a subscription. But I feel like harshly mocking someone who's obviously wrong... hm... Cosmo website is slow... Satoshi Kanazawa doesn't post very fast and right now he's onto describing the obviously ancient evolutionary divide between liberals and conservatives... I've lost all interest in Twisty Faster... ooh! PUAs! The well of crazy that never runs dry!
Bear in mind, I'm lazy. I don't have the time or inclination to comb through hundreds of posts from dozens of forums to find the few stupid statements in an otherwise reasonable community. No, these are just from the top few posts in the "Beginner" forum at "Fast Seduction." I didn't even hit "next page."
I was talking with a couple of guys and girls and suddenly I said to one of the girls (it was the first thing i said to her).
"Your mother smells like a pigeon". she didn't respond.
About half an hour later, she asked me if i wanted to searsh for a toilet with her (we were in a park). And the rest is rock and roll history.
I... wow, gosh, I don't even... what does a pigeon smell like, anyway?
When I open groups of girls who don't respond well to my approach, I've found that a common line they use is "We're not interested" and they'll return to their little huddle.
Since it's common enough among the negative responses, I'd like to know if you have any responses for this. I'm assuming that line is a shit test, and they're really hoping you'll overcome the test and show yourself to be the attractive guy they're filtering for.
A woman said "no," can you please explain to me why this really meant "yes"?
How do you know who's a slut? here's a quick guide:
1. Reach hand down pants.
2. If she has a pussy, she's a slut.
Women are horrible hateful things, and I just wish I could have one.
[Q: A girl was supposed to meet me but flaked out, and this bothers me.]
[A:] WRONG, if you are still thinking about her, she has achieved her goal of getting you emotionally invested in her.
Yeah, because when I don't meet guys and don't talk to them, I'm trying really hard to get them invested. (And their obsession with me is thus my fault.)
Ive already gotten the name of this HB7 that works in a record store (bought a couple of CDs in the process) and now i need some ideas on how do i go back in and #close her.
Wow. You got her name. That's some serious progress bro, it means she's dripping for it, better seize that opening. ...Was she wearing a nametag by any chance?
I chatted up this one girl who was selling those heat pad things. We were talking bout it. The whole conversation was fairly playful. I brought up how I could use it after a work out. She gave no compliment even tho I was peacocking my pecs and biceps. Made her laugh about how she knows nothing about how these things work. Conversation was very fluid, up until I ran out of stuff to say...
She was very intent on talking about nothing other than the pad thing she's selling. I need to figure out how to transition from talking bout the crap they're selling to personal stuff.
She's a salesperson. Of course she'll talk to you; she has to talk to you as long as you're keeping up some slight pretense that you're talking about the product. But if every time you try to pry into her personal life she goes "um, yeah, so another thing you can use the heating pad for is...", this is not your failure in technique, this is a very clear message she's sending you.
Never try to logically or through verbal communication make woman to change. Doesn't work at all. Women thought by actions only.
Woman not thought logically or verbally this anyway, that's for damn sure.
And that's the end of the page. That's the end of ONE RANDOM PAGE on a PUA site. What I'd find if I actually went looking for bad stuff is presumably beyond my worst nightmares.
The theme that stands out the most, interestingly, is not manipulation or even straight-up misogyny, but an absolute inability to hear "no." You'd think, with their emphasis on doing a lot of approaches and not getting attached, PUA doctrine would be to instantly accept a "no" as "your loss, toots" and move on, but these guys twist themselves in knots to explain why "no" means they're getting there, they just need to try harder! I hate to use the phrase "rape culture," I think it's usually applied ridiculously, but... if a guy thinks that not calling him means you want him to fall in love, what do you think he'll interpret "no, I'm not ready for sex now" as?
And the really depressing thing, which I haven't mentioned in the quotes, is the age range of the posters. Some are older guys in their 50s, a lot are in college or the post-college drift, but a dispiriting number identify themselves as high school boys. I guess it's not uncommon for guys to go through a phase where sexual frustration manifests as misogyny, and hopefully these are the guys with the best chance of growing out of it and moving on, but I worry that overexposure to PUA will freeze them in this state. Constant othering of women and reinforcement of the messages "it's not her choice, it's your game," and "when you feel bad it's the woman fucking with you" seems like it could really mess with the head of someone too young to have real-life perspective.
I wish I had some way to talk to them. I really want to make these guys understand how and why to act like goddamn humans, and it frustrates me that I have no means of doing so.
Oh, ick.
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand, I feel sorry for these guys. They're socially clueless and got seduced by "PUA" into thinking that women have cheat codes and that there's something more to "game" than "hit on every woman until one says yes." (The folks selling these "techniques" tend to equivocate about this, because their market is largely young men who want to know how to attract some particular woman they're crushing on--once they've paid, they get told not to worry about that because they should want NSA one-nighters with as many peer-approved women as possible.)
On the other hand, I've been a socially clueless guy with no real-world perspective wondering "how do I get her to like me?", but it didn't mean that I bought into that particular brand of foolish entitlement. So I'm not inclined to give them too much sympathy.
I'd be surprised if the site were NOT mostly teen-aged boys. That period of my life was the time when I probably came closest to relating to PUA ideas: girls were an alien, desirable resource, and the way to tap that resource was to dress, act and posture like a cool guy, (i.e. a jock, or "alpha".) The task had very little to do with getting to know other human beings, it was just going through motions.
ReplyDelete'Course, I want to a boys' HS and girls really were alien. I think most guys grow out of this, but you're probably right in that having these immature notions reinforced by that site could retard their development.
Tincture of time. When I was high school/college age, I was smart, interested in girls, and totally unsuccessful with them. I'd start Monday seeking a date for Saturday night, and never, ever getting one. It encourages PUA thinking.
ReplyDeletePUA stuff IS stupid. But boys have to grow out of it, into men, and get real. There is no way to hurry the process.
You could get an army of women to post to those forums and put some learnin' to those boys (including the 50 yearolds)?
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, since we're not given prenatal training on how to act, people need to learn certain social behaviors from others, and that's the way they're going about it. It may (or may not) be the best way to go about it, and some of the guys (I'm sure) take some of the stuff a little too seriously and go over board. If were to see some guy that was misogynistic and got "tons of pussy," and I was in a similar situation (were I had no clue), then I'd try to replicate that type of behavior; it's human to do so (even if the behavior isn't terribly appealing to most people; or in the worst case, completely abhorrent).
But in the end the only advice you can really give them, is to stop treating women as things to have or possess. Like, be friends with them, and if you get some booty from that friend, then that's fantastic; otherwise there's 3 billion women on the planet, they can take their pick from the others if they get rejected! There's as many reasons for guys acting goofy around women are there are guys that act goofy around women, and it's probably pointless to make generalized assumptions about them, or whatever. :P
Also Holly, I've read a few PUA sites, and a number of them tell the guys to laugh off the rejections and move on to the next woman, so not all of that type of advice is bad. But given the state of our educational system, it'd be a stretch to believe the kids read anything other than "how can I get into her pants the fastest" stuff. Being a teen-aged boy can be kinda rough when dealing with sexual frustration; especially when there's no "real" outlet for it, other than jerking off; but that'd be ghey, or something.
John
PUA makes me cry.
ReplyDeleteWoman not thought logically or verbally this anyway, that's for damn sure.
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
As much as I want to believe that there are some PUA-like mentors who are trying to find ways to build up the confidence of men and help them learn to speak with and attract women respectfully, I am proven time and time again that the vast majority of them are only looking at women as a commodity.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I'm starting to get the impression that thinking of a relationship or sex as a commodity is a rather widespread idea. And while aspects of commodity thinking might be good for a person ("other fish in the sea" and all that), I think that viewing people as replaceable goods is a terrible idea.
Anon and William - It's not mostly teenage boys. They're on there, but they're not the majority. The majority seems to be men in their mid-to-late twenties who are thinking "I graduated college, I got a decent job, my life seems to be on track, why have I not been assigned a woman?"
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly they may still have some growing to do, but PUA in general isn't a youth phenomenon.
John and Stochast - I'm not convinced PUAs view women as a commodity, actually. I think that by the rules of PUA they should, but a lot of individual PUAs seem to actually have very obsessive personalities. I see more creepy anecdotes about "the girl at the supermarket told me to have a nice day, this must be true love" than I do about using girls and dumping them.
I think the "bitches don't mean shit to me" bluster is a way of overcompensating for their obsessions, and putting all blame on the poor obssessed-over girls, but it's not an entirely honest statement of their feelings.
"Woman not thought logically or verbally this anyway, that's for damn sure."
ReplyDeleteBeautiful!
What the hell is an HB7?
ReplyDeleteIf they talk about trying to get women to "give it up," or trying to "get some", that's absolutely commodification.
ReplyDeleteReading this stuff always gives me the urge to go hop in the shower and scrub myself raw. How very slimy.
ReplyDelete"Woman not thought logically or verbally this anyway, that's for damn sure."
What the fuck does that even mean?
If you ever want to see the other side of the spectrum, I'd look at David Wygant's website. He's the only PUA mentor type I've come across who gives pretty good advice, seems to respect women, etc. He's really more of a life coach who focuses on dating, but I first came across his writing on a PUA forum. It went a little way toward restoring my faith in male intelligence...
ReplyDelete--Ann
"Conversation was very fluid, up until I ran out of stuff to say." LOL story of my life.
ReplyDeleteCreepy stuff... the PUAs have a basic concept that if you're not getting results, it's because YOU'RE doing something wrong in your game (rather than because women are all stuck-up bitches or they want a rich guy or something). It seems like an appealing idea on face of it, but here we see the disturbing flip side, which is guys assuming that if an *individual woman* rejects them, they must just need better techniques. Heat pad demonstrater woman is gonna get so sick of this guy.
It's understandable for guys with bad social skills & anxiety around women to seek help in those areas. But it's disturbing that high school guys are thinking they need to become pickup artists if they're not suave with women. It's like, of course you're not a stud yet, since your probably smell weird, have atrocious manners, & have only asked a girl out like once in your life. Wait a few years & the situation will probs resolve itself without the need for emergency measures.
> I wish I had some way to talk to them.
ReplyDeleteYou could so totally do a Learning Annex class!
Ive already gotten the name of this HB7...
ReplyDeleteYeah, what the hell does-- ... Wait a minute. I don't want to know, do I?
HB7 means a "hot babe" (or "hot bitch," lol bitches) with a rating of 7 on the 1-10 scale.
ReplyDeleteMarissa - It's a horrifying mixture of obsession and commodification, with an emotional pendulum constantly swinging between "women are just toys" and "but I want THAT ONE TOY I WANT IT." Certainly the object of obsession isn't humanized, but she's a premium product, not a commodity.
Lastnightsclothes - I get the feeling, albeit a vague one since I only know the story through a narrator who's incapable of reading social cues, that heating pad girl already has a partner. Gonna take a lot of refinement of technique to work around that one, buddy.
Crayonbeam - How would I get them in the door? I'd have to be sneaky and call it "The New PUA" or something, a "why PUA is horseshit" class will only preach to the choir.
If you started posting to the forums as a real girl with boobs and a pussy and stuff, you might get their attention. Worth a try, I think, but it might not take long for them to denounce you as a guy pretending to be a woman to challenge their faith.
ReplyDelete"Hot bitch 7" is either redundant or an oxymoron. Have I mentioned how much I hate numerical rankings?
Bruno - Nah, people try that all the time, they're well defended against such elementary attempts at infiltration. I'd do better pretending to be a reasonable guy, but even then I'd get thrown out as a troll most likely.
ReplyDeleteIf I posted as a girl who was open to slutting it up with PUAs I might get their attention, but... wrong kind of attention.
Aw, Bruno, you only feel that way because you're a 6.73.
I'd do better pretending to be a reasonable guy, but even then I'd get thrown out as a troll most likely.
ReplyDeleteTroll: "So I was at a museum, visiting an exhibit I really enjoyed and would have wanted to see anyway, when I saw this HB6 checking out one piece I really dug. So I walked over and introduced myself and we talked about the piece and ended up hanging out for a while to check out the rest of this exhibit. Afterward, we had coffee and I got her phone number."
Bruno - Yes. TROOOOLLLL.
ReplyDeleteOr more likely you'd get criticized for either having no game, or not describing your game thoroughly in the post.
You also didn't use nearly enough stupid acronyms.
HB7 means a "hot babe" (or "hot bitch," lol bitches) with a rating of 7 on the 1-10 scale.
ReplyDelete[blinks}
Ah.
Y'know, googling this turns up at least one reference to an "HB7.5", which shows an extraordinarily precise approach to something I'd ignorantly assumed was both subjective and too complex to quantify.
Clearly these guys have developed a taxonomy of babeness of incredible subtlety and precision.
@elmoiscariot: There are tests, actually. If you want to find out where you are on the HB scale. I am pleased to find my low rating. No PUAs for me!
ReplyDeletehttp://roissy.wordpress.com/dating-market-value-test-for-women/
Ozymandias - Oh, that ridiculous thing. I've never bothered to score myself, but I'm sure I'd get a like -400 because I'm fat...
ReplyDelete...and I get dates. So what does this shit even mean?
I suppose Roissy (is it me or does it seem like DC is kind of a hotbed for these assholes?) would say that my dates are all men of lesser value and social standing, but man, I don't know what the fuck that even means, if a guy is attractive and funny and has cool friends and a good job, what the fuck else is there to his "standing"?
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/dating-market-value/
ReplyDeleteLesser beta. You don’t immediately disgust girls; they just don’t notice you. With much painful effort you can redeem yourself.
If I discount the PUA approaches and rescale, I get Classic beta. You catch some girls’ eyes, usually the ones you don’t want. Try not to make fatty fucking a lifestyle.
I'll also note that the tests' author has no idea what I'm looking for in a woman ("when it comes to females, Roissy ain't got nothin'
to do with my selection").
Thanks for the links, Ozy.
Bruno - I'd add that Roissy has no idea what I want in a man either, but I think that's a feature not a bug--only suckers would try to attract women by being attractive to women, pfeh.
ReplyDeleteThe early mistakes are always the worst, and those are beginner's mistakes, the mistakes you make getting to the point where you both want to continue the conversation and see if a connection--emotional, sexual, sensual--develops. If all you hear is "No" 30-40 times a week, the emotionally easiest thing to do is just think "This THING won't do WHAT I WANT." And I think your realization "But I WANNA..." from one of your posts comes close to an inkling of empathy for the conventional male role in initiation.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, these guys need to chill.
I got a "lesser beta" answer as well.
ReplyDeleteI lost points for:
* having too high a BMI
* not making enough money
* not owning a car
* being ugly
* having a "low status" job
* having online friends
* being smart
* being shy
* not "negging" while flirting
* being shy again
* saying "I'll be right back" when I leave
Then I looked over at the test "for women" (which is really about telling men what they should be looking for), saw that being a 15-year-old was a positive thing, and got squicked the fuck out.
Wow, just took the 'for men' test - some pretty rape-tacular stuff in there:
ReplyDelete19. You are on a second date with a girl. You go to kiss her. She turns her cheek to you and says “Slow down, I’m not that kind of girl.” You reply:
(A) ”Sorry.”
(B) “Yeah, well, no prob.”
(C) ”This could be trouble ’cause I’m that kind of guy.” *smirk*
If (C), add a point.
"Your mother smells like a pigeon"
ReplyDelete!!!
well, it's an attention getting, I guess...
what next? does her father smell of elderberries? does he fart in her general direction?
also, does anyone *actually* -say- "I'm not that kind of girl?"
ReplyDelete"HB7.5"
ReplyDelete...right; so the real secret of their success is Kelly Le Brock showing up to mentor them after they conjured her via an esoteric process which includes wearing bras on their heads, amirite?
Finding this post (and in fact this blog in general) makes me cheery - I thought I was alone in getting joy out of dissecting PUA logic or just staring in shock at car crashes like Roissy and his equally execrable pal Roosh V. I have actually found one PUA community online which seems remarkably good at cutting down the overt misogyny and delusion - google "Melbourne Lair"; they aren't perfect by any means, but they are at least not revolting misogynists and the ones who are get shot down rather quickly or laughingly ignored, and I've seen homophobia, sexual assault and so on get a specific mention as "things you should not do, ever". Funny, that shouldn't seem like a high standard to hold a group to - they think terrible things are terrible? Zounds! - and yet, when you're talking PUA...
ReplyDeleteI joined when my female friend got rather involved and told me they might like another woman's perspective, and have been attempting to contribute there and kind of sneak in some feminist-inspired ideas, which is alternately quite rewarding and headbangingly frustrating.
Anyway, totally going to be RSSing this blog now; thanks for the very entertaining reads so far.