Something I should clarify in general: I don't think that everything PUAs say is automatically wrong. It's absolutely true that self-confidence and polished social skills can impress chicks, in a totally ethical and effective way. But there is a whole lotta bullshit besides self-confidence and social skills out there under the label PUA. Silly acronyms and number games and "status" hijinks and game-playing and refusal to take a "no" and tremendous misogyny are a part of it too, and the good advice mixed in doesn't make that shit okay.
Anyway. Since we're all looking at our Roissy scores as if that were a real thing (it's not), I have to try an experiment that I haven't seen before. Remembering that my score was -5, "lesser beta" on the lady test, I'm taking the dude test.
1. How old are you?
under 25 years old: 0 points
So I'm a little too young for a 16-year-old, really.
2. How tall are you?
under 5’9″: -1 point
Okay, this one's unfair. I'm pretty damn short for a girl, though, so even proportionally I'd still lose.
3. What is your BMI?
over 27.0: -1 point
Gosh, it was ten points when I was a girl. This is a smaller ding than wearing flip-flops!
4. How much do you bench press?
60% or less of your body weight: -1 point
I carry a bench and barbell around with me to test guys before I'd consider fucking them. Sure it's cumbersome, but it's the only way to be sure you're getting top quality merchandise.
5. What does your hairline look like?
Full head of hair if you are under 35: 0 points
The scoring on this one is complex. Being balding is bad if you're under 35 but okay if you're over and okay if you're black and if you're over 35 with hair that's the only way to get the bonus point.
6. How much money do you make?
under $40K and you are out of college: -1 point
This might be just as unfair as the height question, since if you multiply my salary by a 1.4 maleness conversion factor it's over $40K. But that's a whole nother argument. Also, note that despite the whole "women are all about status" thing, this is pretty lightly weighted. You can make up for being stone broke at 50 just by having hair.
7. Do you have a car?
Yes (over 21yo): 0 points
My 1999 Chevy Lumina brings all the girls to the yard. Damn right, it's got more mechanical problems than yours.
8. Are you good-looking?
5 – 7: 0 points
This one, which was worth a full page of extensive dissection in the female version, is skimmed over with an almost embarrassed hastiness, because caring what a guy looks like is pretty gay. Also note that being average is neutral here, while a girl has to be well above average to avoid losing points. (All of our students are above average!)
9. Have you ever played a leading role in a team sport?
No: 0 points
Unless you're in the NFL or NBA, I don't think this matters after college. (Hell, I don't know how I'd even know if a guy was captain of his high school soccer team or whatever, that's a lot more "trivia" than "selling point.")
10. What is your occupation?
Neutral status (engineer, programmer, accountant, salesman, mid level manager, scientist, military officer, well-paid tradesman, etc.): 0 points
Programmer is "neutral status"?
11. How many friends do you have?
4 to 20: 0 points
Like on Facebook, or like people who I could call them up this minute and cry on their shoulder for hours? Anyway, I actually kind of agree with this one, guys with no friends at all are definitely not super prospects. Even if they do have hair.
12. How many friends have you met through the internet that you have never seen in person?
over 2: -1 point
Dammit, Facebook. I'm going to be like a "lesser omega who smells funny" now.
13. When was the last time you went to a house party?
Within the past month: +1 point
I wonder if I'd lose the point if Roissy knew that we were talking about RPGs and Internet drama the whole time.
14. Have people besides your family called you funny?
Nearly everyone who knows me: +1 point
Which is impressive, because girls aren't funny, they have boobs for that.
15. What is your IQ?
over 145: -1 point
Wow, I wasn't expecting this one. I don't think I've ever rejected a guy for being too smart. (Smart and socially inept, sure, but there are smart and sociable guys out there, it's not an inevitable linkage.) But then again, look at me talking, I'm a lesser beta, what do I know.
16. At a party, which happens first – you approach someone or someone approaches you?
I occasionally approach first: 0 points
Actually I kinda just walk around and talk to people or people talk to me, I don't really calculate it in my head as an elaborate dance of approaches and reactions. I go to parties to have fun, dude.
17. Have you ever been in a serious fight where real punches were thrown and you felt like you wanted to kill your opponent(s)?
No: 0 points
This makes me less sexy, because girls really love the homicidal type.
18. Have you ever been arrested?
Yes: +1 point
I got arrested once when I was eight for riding my bike after curfew without a light, and I was so scared I barfed on the cop. Apparently this makes me a dangerously desirable bad boy. (I might just have been detained, I'm not sure if that was an "arrest" legally, but it's a hilarious story anyway.)
Note that being arrested for child porn is a smaller ding than flip-flops.
19. You are on a second date with a girl. You go to kiss her. She turns her cheek to you and says “Slow down, I’m not that kind of girl.” You reply:
(A) ”Sorry.” -1 point
Respecting boundaries is so not hot. The right answer is "This could be trouble ’cause I’m that kind of guy. *smirk*" Because implicit rape threats (I get the feeling that this line is meant to be delivered while cornering her alone and not quite forcing a kiss but not backing off) are so hot.
20. You’re chatting up a pretty girl you just met in a bar. After a few minutes she asks you to buy her a drink. You reply:
(B) “I’m not an ATM.” 0 points
Not in so many words, because that's toolish and as a girl I would take it as a straight-up rejection, but I have to admit that it would be weird for someone to ask me to buy them a drink. I certainly never ask guys that. (Partly because accepting a drink seems to imply consent for absolutely anything they want to do to me for the entire rest of the night. Man that's five bucks well spent.)
21. You’ve just met a cute girl in a club and have been talking with her for five minutes when she abruptly changes the topic to a raunchy conversation about her multiorgasmic ability. You respond with:
(A) a huge grin and an eager “Damn! That is HOT!” -1 point
Because fuck yeah. Also, seriously dude, if I'm talking like that, unless I'm a major-league advanced-level game player (I'm totally not), it means I want to fuck you. If we've known each other five minutes and I'm talking about my orgasms, there's no pickup to be done; the Game is over and you won. (We both won! After all, if things go well I'm going to have those orgasms, and duuuude.)
The correct answer is of course "a raised eyebrow while saying 'Hey, thanks for the medical report.'" Which I would take as a crushing rejection and slink away in embarrassment.
22. The pickup has been going well. Later in the night she leans in and begins making out with you passionately. You feel like a king and your jeans suddenly feel much tighter. Do you:
(B) continue making out with her for as long as she wishes. 0 points
This is of course a loser move. The winner move is "kiss for a little bit then push her gently away and look distracted for a second." Apparently Roissy's whole philosophy of pickup is acting like you don't want the girl at all and rejecting her at every step. (Except if she says no to you, then it's Rapeasaurus Rex time.)
"He didn't buy me a drink, didn't want to talk sexy, and wasn't into making out--I've never been more aroused in my life!"
Hmm. I wonder if this ties into the idea that women (or 22YOBS, at least) are constantly fending off a huge surplus of sexual attraction. I guess if everyone a woman encounters drools over her, being a little less accessible would make you stand out, but very very very few women have that experience. To any woman who's accustomed to rejection (i.e., 99% of them including most 22YOBS), this would feel exactly like rejection.
23. You go to a bar. Twenty feet away are a pretty girl, a fat girl, and an average guy talking amongst themselves. The pretty girl briefly eye flirts with you. In reponse, you:
(B) immediately approach in a direct fashion maintaining strong eye contact with your target. 0 points
Well, that makes it sound like I'm charging like a goddamn bull. I would actually just go up and say hi.
The correct answer is "immediately approach but from an indirect angle, looking around the room distractedly on the way over to your target as if you might see an even prettier girl somewhere else, and finally delivering your opener from over your shoulder." Because nothing screams sexual confidence like elaborate choreography.
24. Who do you address first?
(C) everyone. +1 point
Whee, I win. And of course "fat" is the opposite of "pretty," that goes without saying.
25. After getting the whole group engaged in conversation and having a good time, your target blurts out “Hey nice pink shirt! Are you gay?” You:
(A) say “No, I’m not gay!” -1 point
Although my intonation would be a bit more "nope, not gay." Because it's not some deathly insult I must defend myself from.
The correct answer is “OK, who brought their little sister to the bar!”, which is actually a little tempting considering the homophobia implicit in her remark, but at this point, she would stop being my "target," because I don't fuck people who think that "LOL PINK LOL GAY" is good flirting.
26. In the middle of the conversation you have to pee. You say:
(B) “Excuse me.” 0 points
Winners just fucking walk away mid-sentence. Roissy's flirting is really, really, really indistinguishable from rejection. Cruel rejection at that.
27. You’ve managed to get her outside your front door. There is obvious sexual tension. You want to close this deal. You say:
(B) “Why don’t you come inside?” 0 points
The correct answer: “I’m thirsty. Are you thirsty? Let’s go inside and taste DC’s finest tap water. But you can only stay for a minute, I have to get up early.”
Wow, seriously? Wow. Roissy's just fucking with us at this point.
And my score is... -5! Holy shit! It's the same! This must be totally scientifically accurate!
Lesser beta. You don’t immediately disgust girls; they just don’t notice you. With much painful effort you can redeem yourself.
So apparently as a Beta-Minus female I could fuck Beta-Minus males, but as a Beta-Minus male I can't fuck anyone without painful effort? This is where my whole "math" argument comes in.
God, I'm stuck on Roissy like a train wreck. I so want to look away... but I don't.
More thoughts:
ReplyDeleteCaring what a guy looks like may be pretty gay, but guys are allowed to self-evaluate or get friends' opinions. Go fig.
My last house party was a bunch of friends watching Gladiator: Blood and Sand, The Super Mario Bros. Super Show and Howard the Duck. Don't worry, ladies, there's enough of me to go around. (Later questions indicate that Roissy sees going to parties as a necessary prelude to hooking up with the most "alpha" woman possible.)
I get the impression that Roissy's interpretation of IQ has a strong availability bias going on. That is, all those guys who brag about being Mensa members make high IQs seem correlated with social awkwardness, but there are plenty of super-smart folks of all genders who use their brains to be witty, eloquent and just plain sexy.
The hypotheticals: most of the time I don't like *any* of the choices. If "yeah, well, no prob" didn't sound so petulant and sulky, I'd probably go with that; I don't see a need to apologize for acting like I want to kiss someone.
If someone asked me to buy them a drink, I don't know how I'd answer; I'd be stunned into silence, probably, and wondering if they worked for the bar or a liquor company. I don't actually see the "right" response ("No, but you can buy me one") as all that douchey if it's said without hostility.
Roissy's preferred responses to sexytalk and sexytimes strike me as just plain paranoid. He's internalized the idea that nobody could be interested in him before he's started playing his games that any expressed interest has to be some kind of "test" or mockery at his expense.
With the making out, I think it's also an attempt to send the message that it's unacceptable to make out without "going further," because making out is like parties - not enjoyable in themselves, but only worthwhile as a route to sex. (Is he *trying* to advertise how bad in bed he is?)
JFP - I think the concept behind all the rejection is that it'll make you into a "challenge" so she'll be determined to get you.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't seem to understand that:
A) Once my tongue is down your throat, you've kinda gotten me, you can stop with the games.
B) My response to that kind of rejection is not "now I MUST have you!", it's "oh, okay, sorry I took things too far, bye now," because women don't actually have boundless sexual confidence ourselves.
Actually, it occurs to me that Roissy's idea of "seduction" may be an end and not a means for him; that is, he's actively kinking on the idea of this rejection/humiliation performance. Be nice if he didn't (a) advocate it to people that just want to find a partner and (b) advocate trying it on people who haven't agreed to play with him.
ReplyDeleteThere's something very Brave New World about all this Alpha Plus Beta Minus terminology. Do they also have Gammas, Deltas and Epsilons?
ReplyDeleteWhy does it seem like the only places that PUAs mention for meeting women are bars/clubs? The music's usually so loud in clubs you can't hear the person yelling in your ear.
-sylvie
JPF - Yeah, the game does at times seem more focused on "reject but don't get rejected" than on actually finding a partner.
ReplyDeleteSylvie - Because a bar/club is a very socially normal and "cool" place to meet people. If you had no conception of how people met,it would sort of be your stereotype. Also most bars and clubs will let in anyone who's over 21 and has money, so there's none of that unfortunate "having friends" barrier that can crop up with parties and other activities.
accepting a drink seems to imply consent for absolutely anything they want to do to me for the entire rest of the night
ReplyDeleteI usually do this as a thank-you (e.g., for organizing the gathering) or gift, or to have an excuse to talk to someone -- not always someone of romantic interest -- and never for a stranger (that I can recall). It's nice to have the gesture returned, but that's as far as any expectations go.
Such a beta.
Bruno, if I accidentally turn you into a PUA I'm going to feel really, really bad about this, okay?
ReplyDeleteI think this pretty much every time you post, but damn, that was awesome!
ReplyDeleteMy last house party was a bunch of friends watching Gladiator: Blood and Sand, The Super Mario Bros. Super Show and Howard the Duck. Don't worry, ladies, there's enough of me to go around.
ReplyDeleteHey, before I got married guys like this were all I dated... including the eventual husband. And there's plenty of Blood and Sand in the Tivo right now. ;)
And there's plenty of Blood and Sand in the Tivo right now. ;)
ReplyDeleteI hear that's hell on the hard drive.
Okay I used to live in DC, so can I just say, WHAT is the DEAL with northeast people & their weird neurosis about buying people drinks. It's not some crushing social/financial obligation that you lavish upon people to show your undying devotion, nor is it a sex contract. It's $5! Down in Tennessee where I live it's pretty typical for someone to get a drink for a friend, acquaintance, or pretty lady they happen to be talking to, and it suggests "I am enjoying your company & want you go have a good time," more so than "you hereby consent to bone me." What is the point of making a small social courtesy into such a big awkward thing?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I hate quizzes where they tell you what happens & then give you exactly three response statements to choose from. It's like, I DON'T KNOW what I'd say if confronted with that hypothetical situation. I'd probably formulate my own response, using contextual cues and the rules of English syntax.
The most fun part of the PUA world for me, and tests like these, is the outrageous amount of effort and time these dudes spend trying to "decode" what people (mostly women, to be honest) mean when they say or do things, instead of, say, learning how to actually listen.
ReplyDeleteI mean, damn, it sounds an awful lot like guys who really believe the type of things this test espouses would wonder what a woman "meant" if she told them she wanted to have sex with them.
Don't worry, Holly, I'm addicted to roissy too. I think the problem is that he's (a) concentrated misogyny in human form and (b) actually a reasonably entertaining writer. So you get the whole trainwreck effect without the AAAHH MY EYES aspect of Fast Seduction.
ReplyDeleteI took one for my hypothetical ideal boyfriend. He got Classic Beta. Obviously, I am a fail woman.
This one actually made me feel obscurely sorry for the douchebag, because it reads exactly like the kind of shit I used to pull in middle school when I was pretending I wasn't afraid of being rejected.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I grew out of it by the time I was seventeen.
Fun fact: Rapeasaurus Rex is the lesser-known brother of Cheeseasaurus Rex.
ReplyDeleteThe pasta he advertises is terrible, but he doesn't much care if you wanted to eat it or not.
I don't get the thing where a woman is talking about her orgasmic capacity and the dude is supposed to belittle her for it. Like, is this meant to be one more (ridiculously unnecessary) step in the great seduction, or is it a for-realz rejection? Maybe if a woman offers sex too freely, she ceases to be of value; maybe a true PUA is supposed to go for women whose legs need to be pried apart with a crowbar or it doesn't count.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone go to the site and read the 16 Rules of Poon? First off, the rules weren't about sex, they were actually about how to conduct oneself in a relationship (which makes me think that Roissy is using bravado to conceal his tender, tearful yearning for Twu Wuv). Secondly, one of the rules states outright that women are alien creatures that no guy will ever be able to understand (an attitude that will make it impossible for him ever to have a fulfilling relationship...). And third, one of the rules mentions that ALL WOMEN secretly want to be subordinate to a guy and support him in achieving his life goals(!).
There's just so much fear, projection, and wishful thinking on the site and so little insight...it makes me sad.
Anon - I'm pretty sure it's not a for-reals rejection; she's supposed to respond by trying to "win you back" or something.
ReplyDeleteBack when I used craigslist occasionally, every third ad from both men and women said "no games!" I'm wondering if the kind of behavior espoused by these tests is what people mean when they talk about "playing games".
ReplyDeletei took both the male and female tests... i'm -8 as a guy and +9 as a woman. ignoring the obvious sexist grossness of those tests i find that quite amusing. it seems like i -- hairy short thin heterosexual nerdy guy -- am worth more on the "female dating market". now i feel queer in a way :)
ReplyDeleteRoissy is using bravado to conceal his tender, tearful yearning for Twu Wuv
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the contradictions I've noticed throughout the PUA crap, actually. And guys who want a girlfriend modeling their behavior on guys who want to bang scores of chicks seem doomed.
I don't get the thing where a woman is talking about her orgasmic capacity and the dude is supposed to belittle her for it. Like, is this meant to be one more (ridiculously unnecessary) step in the great seduction, or is it a for-realz rejection?
ReplyDeleteI think that it's paranoia. If he doesn't believe that women could actually be interested in him without PUA, then a woman who does this isn't showing interest, she's presumably playing some sort of game. I haven't actually noticed this happening post-high school, but they don't call those formative years for nothing.
Maybe if a woman offers sex too freely, she ceases to be of value; maybe a true PUA is supposed to go for women whose legs need to be pried apart with a crowbar or it doesn't count.
This is why I think Roissy kinks on this sort of behavior - because it's so unnecessary if not counterproductive, there's got to be some other reason for insisting on it.
And guys who want a girlfriend modeling their behavior on guys who want to bang scores of chicks seem doomed.
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing, and the reason that this PUA nonsense is so popular, is that guys who want a girlfriend aren't really offered any other model for behavior. So PUA folks seduce guys by claiming their methods will increase their chances with the girl they're crushing on, and then once he's in they hard-sell the "NSA with 22YOBS" mindset.
No, the "free offer" from your perspective is actually a test designed to eliminate men who are too hungry for sex, men to whom the woman might be attracted if they weren't fawning over her in hopes of "getting some." I agree that this sounds insane from the perspective of people who communicate explicitly about their relationship criteria, but a lot of women who want men who perform stereotypical masculinity use implicit tests like this. You just think that everyone is speaking or should be speaking your sociolect.
ReplyDeleteEurosabra - But--and I'm only me, I'm not a woman or anything here--my goal in these interactions is to get some. I like my guys horny because that facilitates the getting some. And I'm a simple creature, and when I say I'm horny, it's not some elaborate double counterfeint, it's cause I'm horny.
ReplyDeleteYou know what feels way, way better than speaking sociolects and performing tests and playing games? A NICE MEATY COCK.
If I rule out (otherwise attractive) guys who want to fuck me, I'm less likely to get fucked, and then we all lose.
But I'm sure you've had the experience while talking dirty to someone that he wanted IT much too badly to actually be wanting YOU, and pulled back accordingly. The "sex talk as shit test" is actually just a pre-emptive and magnified form of that. I'm just a man or something similar here, and my experience of 22 YOBS (what an acronym for your UK readers) in club culture is that really explicit sex talk in the first 15 minutes of conversation is really a gambit to out men who are too hungry. And those who are too hungry never get fed.
ReplyDeleteEurosabra said, "I agree that this sounds insane from the perspective of people who communicate explicitly about their relationship criteria, but a lot of women who want men who perform stereotypical masculinity use implicit tests like this."
ReplyDeleteThat sounds possible.
But then I'm left with, "Wait, So PUA is a technique by which guys who are crap at performing stereotypical masculinity learn how to perform it, so as to attract specifically those women who want men who peform stereotypical masculinity, in such a way as that it's likely to repel* women who don't insist on stereotypical masculine performativity?"
Wouldn't it be simpler for Mr Not Stereotypical to just go for women who might be attracted to who he actually is?
(*It certainly repels women who both don't insist on that, and read and comment on The Pervocracy. Not a scientific statistical sampling, but not irrelevant either.)
Because the traits that make him non-patriarchal (low aggression, agreeableness, non-boundary pushing, non-violent/relational communication style) cause Instant Dry Vagina, even among women who wish it wouldn't. And you have the same fetishization of "authenticity" that makes me giggle when all human behavior is learned. One I learned to push boundaries and grab hair while fucking Nerd Girls both I and my partners got a lot happier. I agree that that is a bit twisted, but I tend to date sexist nerdy women who think a silent sexual encounter with no explicit statement of consent is Teh Hot. Men Should Just Know(tm).
ReplyDeleteThe shorter answer is that shorthand-for-hot women tend not to be cultural outliers, and as they benefit from stereotypical femininity, they seek men who benefit from stereotypical masculinity. One of the more interesting aspects of PUA is that far from attracting nerd/geek subculture alone it now attracts stereotypically-good-looking masculine men who want to get better with women.
For the men who came from nerd/geek subculture in the first place it was apparent that there is a paucity of women attracted to non-pat/non-masculine men in absolute terms.
Eurosabra - But I'm sure you've had the experience while talking dirty to someone that he wanted IT much too badly to actually be wanting YOU, and pulled back accordingly.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you sure of that? That's never happened. What has happened is that I've stopped entertaining social conversation with a guy because he got too sexual, but only with guys I wasn't going to fuck in the first place. (And when a guy shuts me down for being too sexual, I assume that I'm experiencing that dynamic in reverse, and leave in embarrassment.)
Also, I think there's a huge gulf between "masculine" and "asshole." I like my men manly (although not every woman does), but that means that they should be self-confident and a little aggressive, not that they should corner me with "too bad, I'm that kinda guy" or invite me inside for tap water and undisguised disdain.
I also can't stop wondering; after you give that line, do you actually serve her tap water? Because if you don't it's sort of weird, but if you do, god damn.
ReplyDelete(I suppose if you're a true alpha, you tell her where the glasses are and she pours herself some tap water. And then the wild monkey sex, naturally.)
Eurosabra: you do realize you're mansplaining about What Women Want in the faces of women who are telling you that their experiences are different?
ReplyDeleteAs for all human behavior being learned, it's more complicated than that. We're not tabulae rasae; we have personalities, predilections, idiosyncracies. I'm not going to be able to out-Roissy Roissy, even if I took leave of my senses and decided I wanted to.
My personal realization was that anyone who thinks that Men Should Just Know(tm) is not going to be nearly as a good partner for me, even if we do hook up. They'll want someone who's more the "vanilla dom" they're looking for, and I'll want someone who's not so damn passive.
I mean, if you're actually looking for someone who can't admit what they want, that's one thing, but this idea that I should "learn" to be what someone else wants so that I can have mediocre sex with them, instead of focusing on the people I've got real chemistry with? Why the hell would I do that?
(Am I being unfair? So be it.)
Which comes back around - again - to the notion that all of this is about Getting The Girls You Think You Should Want rather than getting involved with people you actually find attractive.
ReplyDeleteI mean, my first reaction to the whole "But that's how it is in club culture" is something like, "And if that's true, that would be a good reason not to go to a club." I don't want to spend time with the sorts of people who get off on fixed normative gender roles, and I certainly am not interested in scraping the bottom of that barrel on the off chance that there might be someone remotely tolerable in it.
Especially since the guys are much more attractive hanging out with the nerds anyway. :P
Bwahahahahaha!
ReplyDeleteOkay, you are ALL outliers who don't deal with trying-to-be-Beautiful People in club culture. But don't pretend that Roissy's rules aren't valid for the particular subculture and sociolect they describe.
I suppose that I have misread women as cultural outliers when in fact they were not, that they were clothed as not-seduced-by-patriarchy-nerds but really expecting to be taken in hand. And that I have extrapolated from that to "women" as a whole, mea culpa.
I do have the problem that (for whatever reason) women who are attracted to my natural personality have minds that are carried around by non-patriarchy-compliant bodies, and that to get someone conventionally attractive I have had to play the dom. So be it. I also expect that most men who have done natural rapport vs. PUA haven't experienced the radical dichotomy I have, of begging for attention for the "so-called real me" while only being empowered in my actual relationships as the abusive asshole.
I'm willing to believe there exists a subculture of abominable, shallow assholes such that this ruleset is something other than a social abomination of catastrophic detestability; human variation is amazing.
ReplyDeleteI'm not willing to believe that anyone with the wits of a peahen would want to join it.
Okay, you are ALL outliers who don't deal with trying-to-be-Beautiful People in club culture.
ReplyDeleteYou're an outlier, he's an outlier, I'm an outlier, we're all outliers!
(The bannister's an outlier!)
I do have the problem that (for whatever reason) women who are attracted to my natural personality have minds that are carried around by non-patriarchy-compliant bodies, and that to get someone conventionally attractive I have had to play the dom.
What I don't get, I suppose, what's so super-special-awesome about "getting someone conventionally attractive" in such a case, though.
I think jfpbookworm has it. The (nonconsensual) headfuckery isn't the means to the end, it's the end in itself. It makes much more sense that way. And yes, would be nice if people like this could at least restrict them
ReplyDeleteoops, cut myself off. actually I don't even really feel up to suggesting that it be channeled into consensual humiliation play or whatnot: I've run into far too many douchebags like this in the kink community who haven't added to their self awareness or actual empathy skills, just expanded their repertoire of ways to be and justifications for being a nonconsensual douchenozzle. This one needs more fundamental self awareness and empathy lessons than SSC or RACK 101 is going to give him, and he ain't going to get it by definition because he thinks nothing is wrong with him. Just drop kick him out of the dating/social/gene pool.
ReplyDeleteyes, I'm in a Mood today.
"But don't pretend that Roissy's rules aren't valid for the particular subculture and sociolect they describe."
ReplyDeleteThankfully, I have no way to actually know this experientially, as I'd sooner get gum surgery than voluntarily spend time around these people.
Having said that, I wouldn't doubt that people (especially women) who most resemble models and/or the ones who can talk the best game, particularly wrt how materially successful they are, are much more successful than that wallflower with the beautiful soul and the great personality, yes. I mean, I didn't need Roissy to guess that. If that is the the sort of thing you like, you will like that sort of thing, and congregate accordingly. Not rocket science.
I still question whether, at minimum, some of the more esoteric and/or rigid physical ones are about anything other than the squirrels running around in his head. To wit: all the *numbers.* Not just the "points" (which are in no way arbitrary or subjective) but all the fussing about over how much distance is between your eyeballs or whatever the fuck it is: it's dark, there's makeup, people are drinking. I doubt most people who actually would rather get laid than score "points" are THAT particular. He comes off like a phrenologist or something for fuck's sake.
That, and the lines he uses: I think, you know, that the degree to which one can pull off being a charming asshole, as opposed to just an asshole, depends not just on the relative lack of self esteem of your targets but frankly on how charming you actually are, as opposed to how charming you *think* you are. There is a fine line between "bad boy" and plain old "Jerkass," and rules or no rules, even assuming there are people who go for this sort of thing (I know there are some, yes) I tend to suspect it's really more of an art than a science.
"Because the traits that make him non-patriarchal (low aggression, agreeableness, non-boundary pushing, non-violent/relational communication style) cause Instant Dry Vagina"
ReplyDeleteOh Mary. Remind me not to visit your planet any time soon, okay.
*I do have the problem that (for whatever reason) women who are attracted to my natural personality have minds that are carried around by non-patriarchy-compliant bodies, *
ReplyDeleteGosh, that sounds rough. My deepest sympathies for your tsuris.
Question, by the way: is this your "natural personality" right now?
Again, you have the problem that no one else in the PUA subculture has the sensitivity to kink and consent issues to find this blog and post here. So I'm what you've got to work with, while everyone else is snarking at Denise Romano and Lady Raine over their "Pickup = Rape" posts. As you snark so elegantly at Roissy.
ReplyDeleteOh my god, you have done what I would have thought impossible- you've managed to diffuse my incoherent rage at how ridiculously misogynist/gender conforming/horrifying these tests are. Your responses were so damn hilarious that I forgot that I was being Angry Feminist Ellie for a second there. I never thought I'd laugh my ass off at something like "Rapeasaurus Rex," but there I was.
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