I haven't done a TFIFI in a long time, huh? I got requests. I find critiquing Twisty is a little more difficult than going after PUAs and evo-psych weirdos and Cosmo, because:
a) She doesn't post that often, and a lot of her posts are personal-life fluff
b) Her writing style is terse and densely "ironic", so it's hard to pull a lot of good quotes and sometimes hard to pin down when she's being serious
c) I get creepy enemy-of-my-enemy comments and emails about "yeah, those fucking feminists should get back in the kitchen, lol"
But I'm in a vicious mood today, and what entertainment Twisty's posts lack, her commenters provide amply.
Okay, so everyone who reads blogs knows about Boobquake, right? Here's the post that started it, if you aren't up to speed. And here's Twisty's totally pro-woman response. Needless to say the TL;DR is "sluts should cover their nasty tits!" FEMINISM!
McCreight was surprised when about 47.876 million people joined her boob joke on Facebook, largely in the shape of helpful dudes offering to photograph the event.
No, largely in the form of women, only we don't count them because they're disobedient hussies and thus not invited to the Real Women party.
We’ve all said stupid things on the Internet. But when you say stupid things about encouraging women to protest oppression by capitulating to Dude Nation’s fondest desire [...] all I can say is, ewww.
Dude Nation is my peeps, Twisty. Woman-attracted dudes are my friends, my family, my neighbors, my coworkers, and let's not forget my freakin' bread and butter. What's wrong with making them happy? I won't prioritize their happiness over my happiness, much less my dignity or security, but if I'm getting titsy for my own reasons and they happen to enjoy it, that's a win-win situation right there.
(Oh lord. I think I'm writing like her. Ow.)
And that's about it for Twisty. She doesn't like it because men might like it, and Twisty would eat her shoes if she heard men liked it when women don't eat shoes. At any rate she certainly seems to agree with Islamic clerics about the need for modesty--they claim it's about the men too, you know--and the horror of sluts. Whether she's also concerned about earthquakes is not specifically addressed in the post.
As always in these posts, the real fun is the scary-insane fucknuts who comment on Twisty's blog. (Note that because of the popularity of Boobquake, there were more normal humans than usual commenting, but the fucknuts still ran the show.)
OMG you guys, wait! We’re totally as bad as the woman-haters whom we profess to oppose. By not equally bestowing the credentials of “good feminism” on all women and their perfectly valid choices, we are committing an atrocity against womankind. Woe, this feminism is a false idol of puritan sexy-lady-hating!
Well... yeah. Exactly. Well said, fucknut.
I realize I am a humorless feminist, but is it wise to antagonize a part of the world we are perched on the brink of war with? A place where women can be executed for showing their ankles or beheaded for having an affair? I’m wondering how the Muslim world will respond to western women mocking their religion and wagging a few hundred thousand boobs at them? I understand the urge to humiliate this cleric, but diplomacy is a delicate thing.
Holy shit, I think they really are Feminists for Hijab. I thought I was joking. Twisty called the Boobquake "capitulation," but it looks like her commenters could teach her a thing or two about capitulating.
[Normal human], you show a real lack of imagination if you think *this* is a hostile environment. Here’s a scientific experiment for you: start a feminist blog, and then watch as the hostile trolls, threatening emails, and vilification roll in. That would be a step up in hostility. Then maybe you could join a male-dominated profession and see what that’s like. It can get a whole lot worse from there.
Check and check on your scientific experiment. And as you all know I'm widely threatened and vilified. Of course this isn't really a feminist blog because I sometimes forget to hate and exclude male sexuality, and EMS isn't really male-dominated because... uh... maybe they threatened and vilified me and I didn't notice? I can be a little dense.
Sexism is a problem. Men are just people who are sometimes very sexist and sometimes not very. And the world isn't that against you, ya big baby. That's the difference between me and the Twistyfans in a nutshell.
I’ve yet to see some Dude earnestly talking a 40+ year old woman into being okay enough with her body to show her tits.
Then buddy, you haven't been to some of the parties I've been to.
Whether proposed earnestly or as a joke, I’m not a fan of seeing fashions that subjugate and objectify women being promoted as a way to reclaim female power against male oppression.
I'm not a fan of fashions that subjugate and objectify! (Actually I am, but ssh, it's hard enough explaining normal sex to these people.) But we're talking about tank tops here. Tank tops are comfy and practical. If casual clothes with good airflow and freedom of movement are "subjugating," shit, I wish they'd let me subjugate myself at work.
Perhaps Jen McCreight’s defenders should ask themselves what purpose drives a boobquake “experiment”? Is this really an “experiment” that requires additional “data”?
Nope! It's just fun, funny, and freeing! I actually like having my tits out--it's physically comfortable as well as making me feel happy and pretty--so I'll pretty much take any excuse.
How many men do you see wearing low-cut shirts – and short shorts, crop tops, etc. – “because it’s hot outside”? Women’s clothing is designed to allow men maximum sexual objectification opportunity, and women are brainwashed into believing this is something desirable.
Patriarchy--making summer hot since 4.54 billion BC. Fucking patriarchy.
The more naked and semi-naked women DudeNation consumes, the more female nudity they crave and the more stringent their requirements become for whom should be allowed to take off their clothing. There are scientific studies that corroborate this.
Oooh, science. It must be uncomfortable keeping an entire laboratory up your ass.
If you seriously want to put the kibosh on the sexual objectification of boobies, you should consider becoming an anti-porn activist. Put a stop to the rampant objectification of the female body, and then, and only then, will we be able to reclaim our titties as our property and our property only.
Very astute, my titties are my property! To use as I see fit!
“I don’t give a shit about what reaction my boobs and their level of visibility will have on men.”
Spoken like somebody who has never been a victim of rape or of childhood sexual abuse, someone who has never hid as a 12 yr girl under a triple large sweatshirt trying desperately to hide her “promiscuity,” least she become prey for male consumption.
I sort of feel for this commenter, but that way she was feeling, under the triple large sweatshirt? Was BAD. It was a harmful effect of harmful experiences, and should probably not become the new fashion standard.
I forgot to add that in skeptical groups there is some weird obsession with proving how superior *our* sexist attitude towards women is compared to *their* (muslim) sexist attitude towards women. Liberal dudes are the majority of the people upholding the boobquake as a good idea; you know, dudes who are for abortion so that they have more access to pussy without the consequence of children.
BURQAS AND ABORTION BANS FOR FEMINISM! GIRL POWER!
Saying we give feminism a bad name is silencing us
No, a DOS attack on 69.89.20.43 is silencing you. This is more like letting you speak and also I speak. If you need a totally silent room to not be "silenced," well, either you don't talk much or you carry a lot of duct tape with you.
Perhaps there are some women who are … attached to the mammary tissue and fat deposits strapped to their chests (whoops, the ellipses means “almost typed ‘delusional with patriarchy-sickness’”).
But for many of us, breasts are just breasts. After all, they don’t really serve a purpose other than for suckling children.
And for happy times! And for being part of my body and my womanhood! Apparently real feminists hate breasts. Presumably also vaginas. And double X chromosomes. I mean, wow, talk about giving men what they want. I suppose you've been fooled into thinking you like those chromosomes, you stupid chromosome whore?
one could cease and desist the wearing of bras (beneath tee-shirts, even) and it would in an existential sense be a radical act because for most women, said breasts do not conform to patriarchal ideas, thus pornsick dudes everywhere would recoil in disgust.
Written like someone who doesn't climb a lot of stairs.
Agreed. This blamer recently wrote an essay that posits most if not all male “desire” for “females” is not actually desire for sex but desire for ownership
Huh. Now I hate evo-psych as much as anyone, seriously, but there might be something to the whole "perpetuate the species" dealie there. (Also, how come when I get owned, it feels so right?) (...Wow, you can take that at least three ways and they're all true.)
yea, how do we deal with the psychological effects of atleast 1/2 the population hating you. It’s almost like you have to become a hermit and misanthropist. It’s like watching people eat a banquet you’re not invited to 24/7. Atleast in the west we aren’t slaves, for the most part can choose between poverty and servitude, which often means more psychological abuse and spiritual death than poverty, and sometimes it’s both at once.
Oh grow the fuck up. I'm sorry Dad made you mow the lawn.
For the record, I myself oppose the burqa ban in Europe and am in favor of allowing Muslim women the right to choose whether or not they wear such attire, but yeah: twisty's fairly elitist.
ReplyDeleteI'm uncomfortable with a burqa BAN, because I'm overall not okay with telling people how to live (hence my infuriation with Twisty), but I'm not fond of burqas, I gotta tell you.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think the Boobquakers were on the side of good in this fight; the Boobquake was more of a light-hearted protest against the ridiculous rationale behind hiding women away than a call for a ban. It only involved women wearing what they were personally comfortable with, and I don't think anyone who chose to dress modestly experienced much pressure to participate.
My impression is that Twisty never tells anyone how to live, but rather that she interprets people's choices in terms of her theory of patriarchy: that it is absolutely unavoidably everywhere, like the air we breathe.
ReplyDeleteI'm a fan of burqas. Man, can you even imagine how much ordnance you could CCW under one of those things? Fuck handguns, you could conceal a goddamn SPAS-12 under one!
ReplyDelete"You want my wallet? How about an M-134 chaingun to go with that? *BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAP*"
"but if I'm getting titsy for my own reasons and they happen to enjoy it, that's a win-win situation right there."
ReplyDeleteThis just made me LOL. I'm a chick and I'm not generally attracted to women in the way you're attracted to women (obligatory "not that there's anything wrong with that") but man, I gotta tell ya, I love boobies. Mine, Your's, Her's, everyone's...well, almost everyone's. So, if someone wants to get "titsy" I'm gonna enjoy the show. I'm gonna watch them jiggle when she walks and notice how they peek out the top of the low cut top even more when she sits down. I'm going to appreciate their roundness and ponder how it may feel to gently rest my face in their smooth, squishiness. Generally speaking, I'm all about the weiner but damn, I do love nice boobies.
"How many men do you see wearing low-cut shirts – and short shorts, crop tops, etc. – “because it’s hot outside”? "
ReplyDeleteAnd how many women do you see walking around without shirts because you get sweaty running, or doing work, or just because it's hot and it's more comfortable! Men's fashion is designed to keep women looking at us in sexual gratification and oppressing us and... wait, I think I took a wrong turn somewhere around Albuquerque.
Stingray: you beat me to it. We don't see men in "low-cut shirts" because they just don't wear shirts at all.
ReplyDeleteBut also, guys can't be sexy in the way that girls can be sexy (i.e. by wearing tight or skimpy clothes) without being presumed gay, and that's a form of oppression that I'd like to see attacked. People should be able to express themselves however they want.
I think it would make society a better place if people started owning their feelings: if I go topless and a guy gets turned on, I'm not making him turned on and he has no right to act inappropriate with me. If a crazy feminist dyke from the internet perceives my naked breasts as pandering to the evil menz, those are her feelings to deal with and she doesn't have the right to tell me to put my boobs away.
The act of getting topless holds no more moral significance than removing a pair of gloves. All this furor is because of people putting their own highly subjective meanings all over a simple neutral physical act.
Comrade PhysioProf - I do understand her theory, but I think it's utterly useless to declare the patriarchy all-pervasive in everything. (Particularly when paired with the "emperor's new clothes" approach of rolling your eyes at anyone who claims to enjoy anything, because that's patriarchy and you just can't see it.)
ReplyDeleteI'd rather think in concepts like "sexism" and "racism," which are often very visible and sometimes actually fixable.
And I think telling women that they're bad for participating in a silly fun event of their own free will is sexist.
I do understand her theory, but I think it's utterly useless to declare the patriarchy all-pervasive in everything.
ReplyDeleteThe relevant question isn't whether it's useful or useless, but whether it's true or false. The evidence seems pretty clear.
I'd rather think in concepts like "sexism" and "racism," which are often very visible and sometimes actually fixable.
If you do this, you play right into the hands of those who benefit from systemic unearned privilege, and who fight tooth and nail to prevent systemic change that might even the playing field, but who aren't "sexist" or "racist" because they don't go around smacking women's asses on the street and burning crosses on black people's lawns.
And I think telling women that they're bad for participating in a silly fun event of their own free will is sexist.
I don't read Twisty as telling women they're "bad" for participating in this event; she is very explicit that it is not women who ought to be blamed for acting within the confines of patriarchy. She is simply interpreting the meaning of their participation in the context of patriarchy. Their participation can be both fun and empowering and air-conditioning for boobs and capitulation to patriarchy. It's not either/or.
>> Oooh, science. It must be uncomfortable keeping an entire laboratory up your ass. <<
ReplyDeleteMan, I love you, Holly.
This discussion is a great example of how Twisty-style defining of patriarchy as ubiquitous completely ignores the actual differences between women's experiences. It is a really, really, REALLY different level of oppression to be forced to wear a burqa in public for fear of *literally* being stoned to death... vs. boys and the media trying to pressure us into dressing sexy. Even though I agree that there are patriarchal paradigms and capitalist structures in the West that are still trying to oppress, silence, objectify and "other" women... look at me sitting here having free speech, civil rights & suffrage, owning my own property, and getting my tits out if I want.
Among other things, making a false equivalence between, ya know, "Hustler" and the Taliban, has the effect of dismissing/ignoring the many fierce women (and men) who GOT us the vote, who have fought for our rights, who have won us so many rights. Virginia Slims ads aside, we HAVE come a long way.
flightless
And now you've got me reading the comments over there too!
ReplyDelete"I doubt anyone named Christina – on account of it’s a female name – has the power to blacklist anyone from the New York Post. The news industry, such as it is, is still dudeville."
I don't know about the NEW YORK Post, but... dudeville?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Graham
flightless
I think the thing that always gets me about Twisty and her ilk is the way they seem to view feminism as a kind of continuum--that everybody capitulates to the patriarchy in some way and that any disagreement with radical feminism is evidence of capitulation.
ReplyDeleteI think porn is a legitimate art-form, that sex work is not inherently degrading, that penises are fun, that crude jokes are not always dehumanizing, that abortion is a bad thing.
I don't think these things because they make my life easier under the patriarchy (or in Twisty's words, because I'm appeasing the DudeNation--way to be fucking condescending). I think them because I actually think them, and I'm still a feminist.
...and I walk around the house in my underwear all the time in the summer. My husband likes it, sure, but I do it even when he isn't home. Because it's hot. Guess this year I'll be hauling out my burqa like a Good Feminist.
First, I'd like to point out that there is a strong feminist critique of "Boobquake" - which I personally thought was a really silly Western-centric response to comments that were directed at Iranian women, not Western women.
ReplyDeleteI think "Dude-Nation" may be making use of a specific definition of "dude" that I've seen around - the Jud Apatow/Seth Rogen/bros-before-hos type.
That said, slut-shaming is totally un-feminist.
I’m wondering how the Muslim world will respond to western women mocking their religion and wagging a few hundred thousand boobs at them?
And the commenters are participating in exactly the same kind of Western-centric obliviousness as the Boobquakers. News flash: Islamic fundamentalist don't give a fuck about what infidel whores living in the Great Satan are wearing!
I think they really are Feminists for Hijab
Just wanted to point out - you can be feminist and wear a hijab!
And the world isn't that against you, ya big baby.
You don't know that. The commenter could experience discrimination along multiple axes.
How many men do you see wearing low-cut shirts – and short shorts, crop tops, etc.
On the other hand, men can go around topless on hot days
I forgot to add that in skeptical groups there is some weird obsession with proving how superior *our* sexist attitude towards women is compared to *their* (muslim) sexist attitude towards women. Liberal dudes are the majority of the people upholding the boobquake as a good idea; you know, dudes who are for abortion so that they have more access to pussy without the consequence of children.
There's actually quite a bit of truth in this statement. The point is to not erase and ignore the sexism here by focusing on the sexism over there.
Written like someone who doesn't climb a lot of stairs.
??? Are you engaging in fat-hating and body-shaming? Seriously?
Oh grow the fuck up. I'm sorry Dad made you mow the lawn.
And again, you don't know what the commenter's experiences are.
If I were to go by my experiences alone, I would say that sexism isn't that big of a problem too. But I'm very lucky in a lot of ways, and have largely been able to avoid the sytemic discrimination that a lot of other women face.
Fat-hating and body-shaming? I'm just pointing out that climbing stairs without a bra hurts!
ReplyDeleteI don't think the link I posted is working, so: http://community.feministing.com/2010/04/where-were-all-of-the-feminist.html
ReplyDeleteThe comments are a really good read.
There's one I'd like to quote in full:
NotSoSexyLibrarian said:
I am unapologetic in my opinion that Boobquake was at best thoughtless and at worst "brown people say the darnedest things". here are my reasons.
1) The shock and outrage over the Iranian cleric's comment was insincere. This is a country where women aren't even allowed to show their faces in public, is anybody really surprised that the things their religious leaders say seem irrational to westerners?
2) It's not a protest if everyone agrees with you. 99% of America is perfectly OK with women showing off their tits, therefore doing so is not a protest.
3) a protest involves speaking truth to power. The Iranian Cleric has no power in the US, so protesting his silly statements have no meaning or consequence. Iranian's already consider western culture a hotbed of moral corruption, so they don't really care about a Boobquake here.
4) This protest took the focus away from women who are actually affected by these statements and turned it into something silly.
There is no such thing as an easy protest, if it's easy, then it's not a protest.
Fat-hating and body-shaming? I'm just pointing out that climbing stairs without a bra hurts!
ReplyDeleteOh! Okay, sorry. I thought you meant that the commenter never got any exercise. Which I thought was really out of character for you. And it was! Sorry about that.
"I don't think these things because they make my life easier under the patriarchy .... I think them because I actually think them, and I'm still a feminist." Ultimate two-sentence response to Twisty's entire worldview. The concept that there are issues upon which intelligent people may reasonably disagree (or even just have different preferences) has no place in her conception of life. If you don't agree with her, it MUST BE ideological mystification.
ReplyDeleteIt fills me with so much rage when people make an argument like "well, hijabs seem oppressive, but here in the West we make women wear bikinis & push-up bras, & those things are oppressive because they can be used to objectify women, so it's hypocritical of us to critique the Muslim world!" Like those are really the same thing. It's ridiculous. Bikinis & high heels and the like are not comparable to burqas/niqabs, not because it's empowerfulizing to be sexy but because those things are situational, & a woman can *choose not to wear them* if she doesn't feel like it or the weather is wrong or something. It's not oppressive to cover your entire face/body with fabric in the middle of a Chicago winter, but such an outfit would be impractical for, say, working in a room-temperature office. But the whole point of hijab/niqab is that you're supposed to wear one whenever you're out in public, so you don't get to make those kind of distinctions. If it were typical for women to make a religious commitments to wear a bikini every day, on the basis of some supposed moral principle, people would think it was pretty sexist. Even liberal "dude nation" people here in the West.
Comrade PhysioProf said:
ReplyDelete"I don't read Twisty as telling women they're "bad" for participating in this event; she is very explicit that it is not women who ought to be blamed for acting within the confines of patriarchy. She is simply interpreting the meaning of their participation in the context of patriarchy."
How does this not amount to a denial of the ability of an individual woman to make an individual choice?
What's feminist about an argument that apparently amounts to "Women can't make a meaningful choice about this?" Sounds an awful lot like what we hear from the patriarchs.
@ lastnightsclothes
ReplyDeleteA lot of women choose to wear hijabs, niqabs and even burqas. What a woman makes a religious commitment to do is her own business. Anyone dictating what women should wear deserves criticism, yes. But there are those in the West who do just that as well - the governments of France, Belgium, and Quebec are trying to ban women from wearing niqabs and burqas in public. There are many smaller incidents as well, like one airline that tried to force a muslim flight attendant to wear a knee-length skirt.
The point is not to get so caught up criticizing sexism elsewhere that we start ignoring sexism here. And to not get all missionary/white-savioury towards women overseas.
Yeah, I might be inclined to give Twisty half a point for at least going against the grain of colonialism/anti-Islamic feminists in in Western feminism, except last I saw of her she had never even *heard* of Islamic feminists and basically treated the very idea, when someone told her it existed, as a fantastic oxymoron and clearly ludicrous. So, no points. She just likes the idea of telling other women to cover 'em up.
ReplyDeleteNoSoSexyLibrarian does have a point, though.
ReplyDeleteI meant to give the props to Marissa, but either way/both. agreed.
ReplyDeleteIf a crazy feminist dyke from the internet perceives my naked breasts as pandering to the evil menz
ReplyDeleteLook, I hate to say it, but this comment makes me feel uncomfortable, that's not irony. It's too much like what women who are a lil uncomfy with radical/butch lesbians say, all the fucking time.
I agree with what some of the other posters are saying about Twisty's way of knocking down dissenters... I've totally experienced that with radfems which is why they tend to especially shit me to tears... if you don't agree with me... your mind is diseased and co-opted! I will 'challenge' you and 'challenge' you until you submit to my world-view!
I agree that the Western world is threatened by ('young'/'hot') women covering up, and I think it can be both/either a choice and social pressure, like bikinis. (Gosh!!!) Just ask Turkish people about their history with hijab. Social anxieties and agendas getting played out on women's bodies, AGAIN. For the record, I'm absolutely OUTRAGED by a government presuming to penalise a woman for what she cannot wear, whether that's Belgium or Iran.
I’ve yet to see some Dude earnestly talking a 40+ year old woman into being okay enough with her body to show her tits.
ReplyDeleteThen buddy, you haven't been to some of the parties I've been to.
Parties? I've gotten 40+YO women to show their tits in public for any ridiculous reason. I was driving a (empty) beer truck across six states, and got flashed an average of twice an hour.
as far as provoking the muslims, they're already provoked. Piss on 'em!
Erm..I like my boobies. They're for me. And not wearing bras is physically painful and kind of gross. (I get sweaty! My boobs are made of fat and mammary tissue, and they're good at heating up the skin of my chest!)
ReplyDeleteSeriously, WTF is Twisty's hate of boobs about? Or hate of women doing what they want? Or people doing what they want?