(I always forget about those sneaky bastards with RSS readers whenever I try to un-say something. Oh well. Cats and bags.)
Sometimes I wish I lived in the alternate universe where men were "socially bi," in the sense that any guy who could possibly stand to choke down a cock was pressured to do so to be sexy. And not with guys he was attracted to, but with the ones his female friends shoved him at. Don't worry, he loves it, it's a total party atmosphere and dudes kissing dudes is just good clean fun. I think dudes naturally tend to be more bisexual anyway. And naturally more inclined to put on little shows for women's entertainment with no thought of reciprocation. Anyway no one's being forced into it, it's just something guys have to do to get female attention and fit in as a sexual outlaw and not be treated a Little Mister Buzzkill.
I want to go to more parties where someone yells "hey, there's two dudes makin' out in the kitchen!" and everyone comes running to gawk and hoot and whoop like they're at a football game. Then the guys don't have to worry about getting female attention for the rest if the night, although depending on the party they might end up in a threesome and the girl is probably gonna want to see some buttfucking at that point. You're not comfortable with that? Well, you really ought to TRY it, or just let him do you at least. I'm sure we can get you used to it.
The funny thing is that I do like chicks sometimes. But when I'm actually attracted to a woman, I want to impress and get attention from HER, you know? (Making out with a dude in front of her never seems to do the trick.) My first sexual urge with her is definitely not going to be "we should totally do some dude together!", either.
I'm not really sure where you're going here.
ReplyDeleteAre you grouchy because some women choose to get attention this way? It does, after all, work very well, and I'd say that's their choice to make.
Or are you grouchy because you were expected to get attention this way? I'd say that's an indictment of the people who did expected. I mean, I enjoy watching two women together. It will get my attention every time, but if you really want my attention dumping here and making out with me is a much easier way to do it.
RobertM - I'm grouchy because I know one too many guys who are trying to get their girlfriends into being bisexual, as if it was like getting her into Thai food. And I'm grouchy because I've seen one too many pairs of chicks making out in an attention-seeking way that was less "whoooo attention" and more desperation. And I'm grouchy that these things almost never seem to happen with men.
ReplyDeleteHunh. I didn't see this post the first time, but I just mentioned a story over at my blog where I was giving another guy a back massage and a couple of women took pictures, and how I thought that was creepy, like it would have been if two straight women were hugging and some guy took pictures.
ReplyDeleteYou may be making the points in a grouchy way, but they're excellent points.
I'm personally not really attracted by girl-girl because I associate it with certain misandrist lesbians I've known rather than sexual outlawry; I don't react like "threesome", I react like "they actively dislike me because I'm the wrong gender." The only attraction girl-girl carries for me is due to not liking looking at guys having sex.
I used to date a guy who'd make out with dudes in order to impress women, actually. I mean, he'd claim to be bi but he's never, ever done any boy/boy stuff in private so I think he's just a performer of sorts (although he definitely finds a certain type of pretty long-haired androgyne very visually stimulating). Boys like that are more common in the goth community than in other circles.
ReplyDeleteSadly, as much as boy/boy turns me on, it only works for me if I know the participants are turned on, too. The time my friend and I went to a gay bar and there were two guys frantically, hungrily making out as though nobody else were around? That was HOT. My boytoy going "Hey, look what I can do!" and plastering his face onto another dude I deemed attractive: mostly just awkward.
My boyfriend is mildly bi-curious. It takes a lot of effort to mildly ask him questions about his thoughts and preferences without trying to steer them. Because, see...my ex boytoy the performer has said he finds my bf hot. And I still find Boytoy hot. And if my bf's curiosity could be pushed in that direction then at least one of them would be genuinely turned on...
But no. I've had guys try to talk me into liking girls and it's fucking annoying. I wouldn't do that to someone else. My boy has to come to his own conclusions on his own time.
Another nice perk about the goth community, btw, is that bi-chicks abound so there's never any "OMG THERE'S TWO CHICKS MAKING OUT IN THE KITCHEN!" - it's kind of par for the course.
perversecowgirl: Did we used to date? ;)
ReplyDeleteI used to kiss boys to turn girls on or to shock normal people. These days when I'm kissing boys it's for my own benefit. Though... it still works for the aforementioned purposes, too.
Huh, really? I've commented any number of times in the past couple of years that, in my circles, bi girls are taken for granted/don't impress anyone, but "omg, two boys kissing!" is a thing to be goggled at and squealed about.
ReplyDeleteYou're hanging out at the wrong parties, maybe.
I would just like to state how much I enjoyed the phrase "Little Mister Buzzkill" in this entry. Seriously.
ReplyDelete>> You're hanging out at the wrong parties, maybe.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I was thinking too. Was it the Swingers thing?
flightless
I'm with everybody else here - you are describing something which, well, is already a not so infrequent case.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you're describing my scene, and describing it as a bad thing which would demean me - and which I should be protected from?
I mean, shit. If I were to write out a fantasy which hits every single one of my turn-ons, I couldn't do better than you just did, and you did it with the intention of disparaging it. I'm not sure what to take away from that.
(PS: I'm grouchy this doesn't happen more often, too. =P )
ReplyDeleteCurious. Do you believe that people are *entitled* to sexual attention, then? Or what are desperate men and women supposed to be doing, in your opinion?
ReplyDeleteE.
Unfortunately, from everything I've heard (as I've never participated, due to... an ocean between us), that's about any major-ish anime/manga/jwhatever oriented cosplay event.
ReplyDeleteI say unfortunately, because, as hot as I find two (more more! ) guys making out and genuinely enjoying it hot (and if they're androgynous/bishounen, see my underwear evaporate), the idea of squealy fangirls practically bullying them into it repulses me.
Perlhaqr: These days when I'm kissing boys it's for my own benefit.
ReplyDeletePICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. :D
-perversecowgirl
I am very glad you decided to undelete this, because my reaction was so much yes.
ReplyDeleteperversecowgirl: Where do you FIND these boys? It seems like every time you comment, I find myself a little jealous about the boys you seem to be surrounded with. Hell with your whole crowds of androgynous, exhibitionist, cross-dressing, mildly bi-curious boys- I'd love to meet just ONE.
ReplyDeleteTo the original post- so much yes. The idea that boy's bisexuality is unheard of but girls should be or pretend to be just for men to enjoy it is... icky from both sides. And I like seeing boys kiss as much as the next person, but an environment where they were pressured into it would be no good at all. Thankfully I've never been in any social group where it was quite as extreme as this.
Yes. Just... Yes. Sometimes my feminist rage boils up inside me and I can't even put it properly into words.
ReplyDeleteDragojustine: I hang out with people who identify as artsy and/or goth: two subcultures known for their exhibitionism, sexual experimentation, etc. Plus when I used to have an online personal ad, I specifically said I love twinky-looking boys who crossdress, are on the submissive side, and love to have their pictures taken.
ReplyDeleteAnd living in a big city helps, too, I'm sure. I know I'd have a much harder time finding my preferred kind of boy if I lived in Anchorage or something.
But maybe it's partly just luck, too.
Obligatory Disclaimer: I'm a heterosexual, cissexual, poly male in his late twenties -- and for the moment, "poly" benefits my significant other, not me (except insofar as it makes her happy, of course).
ReplyDeleteWith that out of the way: I don't think Holly's post is intolerant or grouchy at all.
It incisively points out one of American society's most vexatious double standards: that it's okay for women to be bisexual, but emasculating for men to be bisexual; that two women together is hot and designed, fundamentally, for the amusement and titillation of men; but two guys together is gross.
But the fault can't be laid solely on patriarchy: if it were a matriarchy, the standard could easily be reversed, and we could be living in a world just like Holly described in her original post.
What's the missing ingredient? Heteronormativity.
Patriarchy = women are here to please men.
Heteronormativity = men are supposed to fuck women, and women supposed to fuck men.
Patriarchy + heteronormativity somehow = women are supposed to fuck and serve men, but they can also fuck women if it serves men in the process.
Go figure.
I've kissed a few other men, but I didn't like it all that much. They seem to think it's all about ramming their tongue down my throat, or something. That's rather uncomfortable, especially with a stranger.
ReplyDeleteI don't mind if you're grouchy but I have some notes.
ReplyDelete1. OK, if you wish you lived in a world where men were pressured to be bi, why don't you start pressuring some?
2. I don't want to offend, but you do realize that you don't live in the same universe as most people, right? The average man may have fantasies about bi women, but the average woman is not spending her time at swinger parties or anywhere else where people are saying things like "Go on, she loves it!" Most people don't spend their time at parties centered around sex, period, for better or for worse.
3. Is it weird that kissing is the last thing I'd want to do with another guy, sexually? It just seems like it's not that hard to imagine getting to a point where it's all sex and sex is just sex, whoever it's with, but kissing somebody is different.
I have a feeling that's neurotic and nonsensical, but there we are.
@Don:
ReplyDeleteHeterosexuality is both perfectly acceptable and your prerogative. Not to put words in Holly's mouth, but her post had nothing to do with the validity of heterosexuality. Holly's post was intended to put a male face on the pressures some women face at parties and such. Specifically: to kiss other women, for male amusement, regardless of whether or not they happen to be bisexual.
Speaking as a male, I would like to disown and disenfranchise every single damn one of those gorillas who encourage women to make out like circus freaks: women do not exist for your amusement!
Oh I hate that so much. It's been a long time since I had a girlfriend because I have some trauma around the idea of dating women since being sexually assaulted by one. I remember when I did have a girlfriend, having to deal with things like people trying to crowd us and take photos/watch when we merely wanted to be together at a party like anyone else. Despite being aware of my history, boyfriends have still attempted to pressure me into casual threesomes with people I don't even know despite my pointing out that if I was to have sex with a woman again, I would have to spend a lot of time getting to know her and building up trust in a relationship. Though, this was the same boyfriend who was all for me having a girlfriend but went mental when I got a boyfriend (poly).
ReplyDeleteMaybe we're just older and have moved on a bit, but girls making out don't get much of an audience. 'smatter of fact, there's a whole subset of people where the gals are allowed to play but no swapping, i.e. no penetration of my g/f by your b/f kind of thing. So I do suspect women are "more bi", either because they're more comfortable and secure with who they are, or because society is more permissive, or something. Bi guys are frowned upon (except as every gal's fantasy)
ReplyDeleteI do suspect that some guys get their gals to pretend to be bi to pull other gals, but that doesn't really work in the really bi crowd :-)
Guys can be assholes. That ties in neatly with the "no single guys" thing a few posts ago.
I don't have time to read the other comments, so apologies if it's already been covered.
ReplyDeleteI'm with ya. In that, at least, I wish we didn't have the social pressure we have on men to be _either_ straight _or_ gay, with no exceptions. I know plenty of gay men, and freakin' tons of at-least-a-little-bi women, but have only known two openly bi men, one of whom was completely outside the kink culture.
I have a really hard time believing women are so dramatically "more naturally bisexual" given how widely people vary in everything else.
It's also weird how half of your scenario seems actually to happen: a hell of a lot of women in my life think it's insanely hot when two guys make out or have sex. There are just very few guys willing to take 'em up on it.
I totally agree with this post. Not necessarily in that I want it to happen, but more that the double-standard sucks.
ReplyDelete@Don: It's certainly not uncommon in the (vanilla) college aged (and sometimes a fair bit older) crowd that I socialize with. I hear the attitude that all women are somewhat bi and encouragement for women to make out plenty. Hell, my nearly 30 year old boyfriend tried the "of COURSE you're somewhat bi!" on me to try and talk me into a threesome. It didn't go his way.
I'm kind of baffled by all the people who think this is a totally rare and bizarre thing, tbh--and I really don't hang out in the same circles you do. This kind of BS was the norm at pretty much every party I went to in college. I had a college roommate who came home in tears because one of the guys she was out with bullied her into making out with another girl on the dance floor (and yeah, it was an overreaction, but that's still a shitty thing to do to someone).
ReplyDeleteComing as a girl who actually is bi--not everybody is. Not all girls are, and not all the girls who are want an audience. It's great if they do, but those who don't shouldn't be pressured into it, and they often are.
Goddamn internets ate my post, here's attempt #2:
ReplyDeleteMaybe we're just older and have moved on a bit, but girls making out don't get much of an audience. 'smatter of fact, there's a whole subset of people where the gals are allowed to play but no swapping, i.e. no penetration of my g/f by your b/f kind of thing.
But it seems to me that "girl-on-girl is for men's entertainment!" and "I let my wife fuck women but if she fucks a dude it's cheating" are two sides of the same coin: both assume that girl/girl sex isn't "real" sex, just something that happens in relation to men. So the idea of a girl/girl play area is not necessarily some huge sign of enlightenment.
My theory on bisexuality? I think men and women are equally bisexual but men are less likely to explore it because society is so weird about that.
-perversecowgirl
aehbel said, I had a college roommate who came home in tears because one of the guys she was out with bullied her into making out with another girl on the dance floor (and yeah, it was an overreaction, but that's still a shitty thing to do to someone).
ReplyDeleteNot an overreaction at all. If one of the guys had bullied her into making out with another guy, it would be basically a kind of sexual assault. That it was another girl doesn't change that.
@mabdreams, i am so sorry that happened to you!
ReplyDeletei too have had the boyfriend who's fine with "poly" when it's me and another woman (or "girl" as they inevitably say), but not when it's a man. Goes along with the whole initial scenario here, where women together are "obviously" just posing / doing it to turn the guy on... Bah.
flightless
this is an area where i, too, getting grumpy as fuck.
ReplyDeletei'm pretty sure i'm the only straight woman i know. at least, i know i'm the only woman i know who WON'T at least kiss other girls. but, invariably, some one tries to force it on me if i go somewhere. because i'm "kinky", right? and all kinky women are A) sluts and B) bisexual.
my favoritest thing about my guy, when it comes to sex, is something that happened over 6 years ago.
he made a joke about "let's have a 3-some" and i said [annoyed tone] "only if the 3rds another guy" - and, instead of being insulted or annoyed or anything negative, he very calmly said "oh, yeah - i see your point. forget i said anything, unless we run across a guy who looks like you." which was sweet and all, but mostly it was him GETTING IT.
too many guys [and i'm 33, and was single until i was 28] either DON'T get it, or WON'T get it. i'm a girl, i'm sort of attractive, i [used to] set people on fire [that was my sole Domme shtick], therefor i should make out with other women for their amusement. and when i'd counter with "you make out with YOUR *MALE* friend first" they almost ALWAYS got pissy or pushy.
because "everybody knows" that ALL girls are secretly bi enough to make out with other girls, or are at least willing to do so to make guys happy. me being straight didn't enter the equation - if i wanted to make "the guys" happy, i had to be sexually available in the way THEY wanted. since i refused, i was constantly mocked and lectured about it. "it's harmless!" "it's just fun!" "don't you want to turn [guy]on?!" "stop being so uptight!?" "how can you be into kink if you won't even kiss a girl!" "you'll never get a boyfriend if you can't even do this!" "what's the matter with it, are you a homophobe?" "if that's what guys like, give it to them!"
NO WHERE, in ANY of those lectures, was ANYTHING about what i wanted. i won't kiss girls because i'm NOT bi [or a lesbian] and if i DID kiss girls, i'd just be furthering this insane dialogue that says "women kissing other women is NOT because they WANT to, but because MEN LIKE IT" it's disrespectful to the LGBTQ populace as a whole. and, of course, i DON'T WANT TO.
sigh
gah! pls forgive above typo, i was single til i was *27*. sheesh
ReplyDeleteHmmm I'm just going to point out something you all missed. As a Bisexual man I don't make out in public with other guys because i don't want to be beaten up later on in the night by someone who has a problem with it. Sad but true.
ReplyDeleteMy post wasn't supposed to be about that, either. Probably should have been two separate posts; the last part was just some brain lint that got knocked loose from reading the description of "socially bi" women. I can see how putting it in that post made it seem like I was annoyed at Holly, but I'm not. I wasn't being sarcastic in the first part of my post, either.
ReplyDeleteloved your post and totally agree.
ReplyDelete