Man, I need to get back to writing about sex. Good sex and good relationships are some of life's greatest joys, and that's why I care so much about fighting the evil and sick things that try to take their place. But man, writing about evil and sick wears me down. Next post gonna be about happy wonderful mutual fun.
But I wanted to make one more point on the whole abuse thing, and that's that this is an argument:
"You didn't get any groceries? What the hell are we going to have for dinner?"
"It's not always my job to shop! Why don't you ever shop?"
"You get off at four and I get off at seven and you had three fucking hours to shop!"
"Oh, so now you're swearing at me? I'm not your domestic fucking servant, okay?"
"Well, I'd just like some goddamn dinner when I get home from work!"
"Well, get your own goddamn dinner!"
It's not a productive or healthy argument, but it's an argument.
This is not an argument:
"You didn't get any groceries? What the hell are we going to have for dinner?"
"I'm sorry. I can go shopping now."
"No! It's too goddamn late now! You had three fucking hours to shop!"
"I'm really sorry, honey. I'll fix it right now. Don't yell."
"Don't fucking yell? I'd just like some goddamn dinner when I get home from work!"
"Okay. I'll make you something. Just have a seat and I'll make you something."
"No, don't even try now, you don't give a shit about me and as far as you're concerned I should work all day and then starve."
"Of course not, honey."
The difference is pretty clear, right? Two people turning angry and insulting is a bad situation, but one person working themself up while the other does nothing but placate and apologize is... another thing.
And when I hear that "they were arguing and things got out of hand," I always wonder if it was really an argument at all.
This post is amazing and should be required reading for, well, everyone in the world.
ReplyDeleteAnd if I can brag for just a moment: my bf and I don't argue. I'm not saying that in an "our relationship is so perfect that we never fight! And it's totally not because I'm repressing all my anger issues!" way (that was my marriage). Just, if one of us has an issue with the other, we're able to talk it through rationally, apologize if necessary, and come to some kind of compromise so we're both mostly getting what we need. It took a long fucking time to get to this point - it involved taming my own tendency to lash out and holding out for a truly amazing boy - so I feel entitled to bragging rights.
Sometimes one or both of us is tired/cranky and a simple exchange takes a snarkier tone than necessary, resulting in dirty looks and both of us retreating to our own space for a little bit. But that's the angriest we get. Thank god.
Perversecowgirl - Actually, it sounds to me like you do argue. What you don't do is fight.
ReplyDeleteHere is some irony.
ReplyDeleteWoman charged with killing husband is lobbyist
A 45-year-old woman, charged with ending a domestic dispute by killing her 26-year-old husband of five days, is a registered lobbyist for a group fighting domestic violence.
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/woman-charged-with-killing-344266.html
@Owen
ReplyDeleteThat leaves a bad taste in my mouth; metallic and tangy, kinda like blood.
She: "You didn't get any groceries? What the hell are we going to have for dinner?"
ReplyDeleteHe: "I'm sorry. I can go shopping now."
She: "No! It's too goddamn late now! You had three fucking hours to shop!"
He: "I'm really sorry, honey. I'll fix it right now. Don't yell."
She: "Don't fucking yell? I'd just like some goddamn dinner when I get home from work!"
He: "Okay. I'll make you something. Just have a seat and I'll make you something."
She: "No, don't even try now, you don't give a shit about me and as far as you're concerned I should work all day and then starve."
He: "Of course not, honey."
Anon - If you think you just TOTALLY BLEW MY MIND LIKE WHOA, you really didn't. You notice how there are no gender pronouns in the post?
ReplyDeleteAnd unfortunately, although it shouldn't, although abuse of men is a very real and underreported problem, I can't help but see things like what you posted as--between the lines--being somehow dismissive of the abuse of women, as saying not "women get abused and men get abused" but "women get abused? shut up, men get abused." This isn't what you literally said, but it's a viewpoint that seems to be out there.
If you don't challenge the prevailing gender stereotype then you support the prevailing gender stereotype. Consider the following:
ReplyDeleteA. The pilot, he flies the plane.
B. The pilot flies the plane.
C. The pilot, he or she flies the plane.
Which of these indicates that women also fly planes? Only C. That's because if you ask people to imagine a pilot their imagination will automatically supply a male pilot.
I can't help but see your last comment as--between the lines--being somehow dismissive of the abuse of men, as saying not "men get abused and women get abused" but "men get abused? shut up, women get abused."
Anonymous, no one is falling for your derailing crap so shop it around somewhere else...we're not buying.
ReplyDeleteHolly, I like the juxtaposition of subtle things in that conflict that have huge differences in meaning. I agree with perversecowgirl that this is the kind of thing that all people should get to read and think about so that they can be savvy to it in their own relationships. Every couple is going to have conflicts, but figuring out a way to handle those conflicts without abuse, belittlement, escalation, name-calling, etc. is crucial to having a good relationship and riding the ups and downs. This series of posts has been spot on!
It's a sticky issue. Because "men get abused by women" is absolutely true and absolutely horrible and also a "men's rights" dog-whistle. I don't know if the original commenter was dog-whistling or not, but something in their snarky take-that lack of commentary put me on my guard.
ReplyDeleteToo true, and I think the second conversation probably happens more often than the first.
ReplyDeletePlus the whole "I'm going to get anonymously bitchy at you because you didn't make your post about abuse specifically about abuse of men" thing, which is kinda textbook "derailing to derail".
ReplyDeleteActually, I notice that the second anon (who was talking about pilots) wasn't speaking about what first anon did. Because first anon actually wants:
ReplyDeleteD) The pilot, she flies the plane, and whenever you don't emphasize over all other things that women fly planes, you contribute to the downfall of the world and are a terrible person forever.
(ok so I added that last bit in)
Not to take anything from the women, but the following modification of the argument is pretty close to how it was for me. "You didn't get any groceries? What the hell are we going to have for dinner" she yelled from the couch.
ReplyDelete"I'm sorry. I can go shopping now" he replied, wearily turning back toward the door.
"No! It's too goddamn late now! I have been sitting here for three fucking hours waiting for you!"
He: "I'm really sorry, honey. I'll fix it right now. Don't yell."
She: "Don't fucking yell? I'd just like some goddamn dinner when I get home from work!"
He: "Okay. I'll make you something. Just have a seat and I'll make you something."
She: "No, don't even try now, it's too late to eat! You know I have to wait thee goddamned hours after eating to go to sleep! You don't give a fucking shit about me and as far as you're concerned I should work all day, wait for your fucking ass all night and then starve."
He: "Of course not, honey."
I always rush to defend women against physical violence, but had no clue how to deal with emotional abuse myself. These last two posts have helped me look at my past more clearly and more in depth as well as given me a few new tools to use. Thanks All!
By that definition, every argument I've ever been in is abusive, because my reaction when someone's mad at me is "I'msorryI'msorryI'msorrypleaseletmefixitIcan'doanythingrightI'msosorry." I don't know why; I have no history of abuse or anything, and I am perfectly capable of asserting myself in a neutral situation. (I could bring up "hey, you never buy groceries, could you do that sometimes?" sometime when no one is angry at me.) Perhaps it is due to my terminally low self-esteem or something.
ReplyDeleteThis is a very interesting post. I don't typically think of myself as sheltered or anything (hardly) or having grown up in Lollipop Land, but this is literally my first exposure to "'Argument' Number Two".
ReplyDeleteAnd like you, I now wonder how often "we were arguing and things got out of hand" actually involves an 'argument' of type number one vs: number two.
I've "always" known that domestic abuse is bad (from as early as I ended up reading about it in books, anyway) and, actually, I dare say I have some pretty heavy "white knight" tendencies. But, whereas physical violence and direct, obvious verbal violence are, well, obvious abuse, I hadn't really considered some of the more subtle breaking down that goes on in an abusive relationship. So, thanks for writing this and giving me a better insight.
Heh, and now I feel sort of bad that this post is all "me me me me me" but I'm the only person whose experiences I can directly catalogue, so it's what I tend to talk about.
Actually, it sounds to me like you do argue. What you don't do is fight.
ReplyDeleteIn my mind, an "argument" is when there's an actual issue that needs resolving (not just general crankiness) and a "fight" is when more of a verbal attack (usually an argument that went wrong, but sometimes someone being an abusive asshole).
With my bf our snarky exchanges aren't about actual issues (like "why am I always the one to buy groceries?" or "it bothers me when you flirt with other people"). It's more like he'll come into the kitchen in a cranky mood and go "WHERE'S THE ORANGE JUICE?!" and I'm like "IT'S WHEREVER YOU LEFT IT AND WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO ME IN THAT TONE?!" and he realizes he's being a bitch to me for no reason and goes off by himself until he's over it.
So..."bickering", I guess, would be the word I'd use.
The sad thing is: I cannot share this absolutely amazing post anywhere else, because... well.. Holly... you know...
ReplyDeleteYour blog is SO amazing, but anyone knowing that I read it would create problems of its own. :)
Anon @ 5.55 - you can get away with sharing it by saying someone linked this specific post to you. Plausible deniability is a beautiful thing.
ReplyDeleteIt's been a strange revelation to me that I don't actually argue. It's a strange byproduct of my abusive upbringing. I'll state my case in a reasonable tone exactly once. Then, if the other person disagrees, I shrug and figure it's hopeless. I'll do whatever they want as quickly as will get me off the hook, then leave to spend some alone time calming down, which usually turns into shaming myself for having had the audacity to express an opinion. Many tears are involved. Sometimes, if I'm feeling particularly confident, much later I'll restate my case, bringing in new evidence and being sure not to repeat myself, because that would be "treating someone like they're stupid." If my opinion is still ignored, I spend years trying to figure out whether I'm the crazy one and I just need to realize it, or whether maybe, just maybe, there was something a little bit wrong in the other person refusing to listen to me, even if I was a little meek in expressing myself.
ReplyDeleteI ran across a line in a sci-fi book (one of Lois McMasters Bujold's Vorkosigan saga series, if you must know) that perfectly sums up the aftermath of all this. It's something to the effect of that the relationship that had just ended wasn't the kind with any obvious abuse; it merely had this insidious quality of constantly making her question herself, asking, "Was it really me? Was I really the crazy one?" That last part just sticks with me because I keep asking myself that over and over with so many people in my life.
(Not that there has to be "a crazy one" and "a sane one" in every troubled connection, but because gaslighting combined with black-and-white thinking are major tactics of emotional abuse, sometimes in the aftermath the complexities of "we can both be a little wrong" or "I'm okay, you're okay" can be difficult to grasp. Years of being told there is one sane one and one crazy one--and the crazy one is you--are hard to forget sometimes.)
Sorry I'm posting so much so many years after the fact. I don't really expect many people (or maybe *any* people) to read these, but I've got to get it out of me somehow.