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| Via tumblr happybdsm, which is awesome |
For all the problems in the reality of kink, I love the ideals. Kinksters may not practice perfect consent and communication (or, sometimes, any), but at least we know we're supposed to. We talk about these things, we have classes and workshops on them, we even pass out little flyers about consent and communication. I wish everyone did that. I wish everyone, in this way, had sex the way kinksters do.
You can't avoid communication in kink, because the category of "kink" is too wide open for there to be any "default" script for play. "Wanna hmm-hmm y'know? [meaningful eyebrow wiggle]" is just not ever going to convey "wanna tie me to a chair and verbally humiliate and lightly beat me?" You've got to come out and say it, because there's just no other way your partner will have a clue what you're thinking.
You can't be fuzzy about consent in kink, because what you're doing would be literally torture if it weren't for consent. You can't beat a person black and blue with a cane because they seem like they want you to. You really have to reconsider your life choices if you start tying a person immobile because they didn't tell you to stop. I mean, that doesn't make you a little insensitive or "bad at communicating," that makes you a few steps shy of being the goddamn Jigsaw killer.
Is either of these things really unique to kink? I don't think so. There's certainly a cultural "default" script for heterosexual vanilla intercourse, but is that the only sex you want to have your whole life? And there's certainly more tolerance in society for "I kissed him so he should've known I wanted to have sex" than there is for "I kissed him so he should've known to handcuff my wrists to my ankles," but I'm not sure the first is any less absurd or dangerous.
Sex is a scene. Even if there's not a bit of kink to it, if it's entirely gentle and egalitarian and "normal," it's a scene. It's an intense manipulation of another person's body purely (or hopefully at least partly) for the purpose of pleasure.
So what are the rules for a scene?
-You have to negotiate, whether you find negotiation sexy in itself or not.
-You have to be honest with your partner what you're looking for, and expect them to be honest with you.
-You have to take safety precautions, and consciously accept the risks that exist even with precautions.
-You have to respect safewords. ("No," "stop," "wait," and such are safewords unless otherwise negotiated.)
-You have to be aware of your partner's responses and check in with them if things seem off.
-You have to be able to distinguish--and doublethink a little bit--between the fantasy that makes it hot and the reality that makes it ethical.
That's a lot of concepts but not necessarily a ton of work. In an established relationship you can do it with one sentence sometimes. Zero sentences if you have pre-negotiated understandings. What really matters is the mindset--that sex is not a thing that just happens. Sex is a thing you do, and it's worth doing deliberately.
As with most of my "Cliff's Super Confident Sounding Guide To Life" posts, this is something I'm still working on myself. I'm guilty of asking for sex with "mmhm y'know" when I really had a lot more to say, and I wish I hadn't, but I still do it sometimes. Learning to have sex deliberately is a process and not an easy one. But the rewards (amazing orgasms, snugglywugglies, no "does he really like this" doubts, no "that coulda been better" regrets) are so worth it. And kink has helped me tremendously on this journey.
I don't think the specific activities of kink are any use to vanilla people. If you're not wired for this stuff then you're not wired for it. But I think everyone, kinky or vanilla, should learn how to practice Risk Aware Consensual Fuckin'.
It's always baffled me that people will cheerfully have a twenty-minute conversation about where to go for dinner (Chinese/we had Chinese last night/I'm really in the mood for Thai/that new steakhouse just opened/but you know how you get when you're really in the mood for something like you've got a craving and I really have a craving for Pad Thai ok/yeah ok but we should check out that steakhouse soon you know how I feel about steak) but reduce sex to "Hey, you wanna?" *eyebrow wiggle*
ReplyDeleteWho said the topics are mutually exclusive?!
DeleteWoo posts I like. I've just got out of a fairly uncommunicative relationship, and surely will talk a lot in my new one.. Just giving out a "thank you" shout <3
ReplyDeleteWonderful post, as always. I feel like that list of questions should make it into the "What you have been taught in sex ed" lists.
ReplyDeleteThis applies to oh so many areas of our lives. Vitally important in intimate relationships, of all kinds. Because like it or not, we have fairly intimate relationships with more than just our romantic/sexual partners.
ReplyDeleteI'm one of those people who goes to the dentist and wants them to describe everything their doing. I'm the person who starts to panic when I see an instrument I don't recognize or hear a term I don't remember. I won't pretend to be excessively knowledgeable about dentistry, but I'm interested and it helps me calm down about the potentially uncomfortable things being done to my mouth. It's bugged a few dentists and hygenists I've asked to keep up a running patter, but most are pretty happy to tell me what they intend to do before poking and prodding and that keeps me fairly content about the situation, despite the general discomfort I feel there.
Why is this taboo when you're at the doctor for a pelvic exam? I find the exams triggering under the best of circumstances, but my most recent experience left me past tears and well on my way to emotional shutdown. I didn't feel like I was free to ask the technicians or doc to describe what they were doing. There were very few words exchanged and it was very tense and quiet. Generally speaking, the exam process is more or less the same from one visit to the next, but just dropping trou and hopping up on the table doesn't confer unquestioning consent to everything the doc might want to do. And yet, I was left feeling like I was the odd one for my discomfort.
The more I think on it, the stranger it seems to me that we don't question the lack of dialogue we have with medical professionals more. Whether it's looking in your mouth, checking your blood pressure or palpating your pelvis the relationship is an intimate one for all it is also professional. It should have the same guidlines for conscent and communication as any other intimate relationship.
I have every right insist on it, even if in the moment it's hard to remember that in the face of the silent doctor with his hands in my nethers. All I need now is the confidence to insist on it...
I understand the difficulty of feeling confident asking for this, but seriously, any ob/gyn who wouldn't get it and wouldn't be willing to at least try and work with you should probably be grounds for switching to a new doctor. Someone in this line of medicine should be aware that their work deals with patients in a way that makes many people feel vulnerable or out of their comfort zone - our genitals are simply more intimate than, say, our ears, especially the way we get socialized - and make an effort to put their patients as much at ease as possible.
DeleteAnd doctors like that do exist! I've had at least one ob/gyn who actually defaulted to this approach. Without me asking for it, she would tell me what exactly she was about to do before every step in the exam, what that involved, and what I may feel as a result, and then waited until I at said "okay" before doing it.
Just to be clear, I am not trying to give you a hard time for having difficulties with this! Asking for better practices from your doctor can be pretty darn intimidating. I'm just saying that you have every right to ask for this (so any doctor who gives you a hard time about it/is unwilling to work with you should maybe not be your doctor), and that there are indeed doctors out there who handle this better, and hopefully you can find one!
(Availability of doctors in your area and insurance coverage willing, of course. But that's a whole 'nother rant...)
My gynecologists always described what they were going to do before/as it was done, and what sensation I should expect (a pinch, cold, might cramp a little, etc). I've had a few over the years, both genders. I dint think this at all an unreasonable or even uncommon thing to expect. I probably would, if possible, get a new Dr. if I encountered someone who didn't, it's just courteous behavior.
DeleteI've had GYNs talk me through what they were doing and it helped a lot--they are out there. Of the quiet ones, I think some just aren't paying attention to your needs, but some may think you want them to be quiet, so it's worth asking.
DeleteIn my experience Planned Parenthood practitioners have always been particularly good about being sensitive to patients and not springing anything on you. (They're also super non-judgmental when you describe an unusual sex life to them.) I'm guessing they get some extra training on that.
I actually just had my first pelvic exam yesterday, and the nurse practitioner I saw at my campus clinic was amazing. Not only did she make a point of trying to put me at ease and talking me through what she was doing/what sensations to expect, before she put in the speculum, she asked me if I wanted the chance to see my cervix. So she gave me a mirror and I got to see my cervix, and then when she was doing the bimanual palpation she pointed out and let me feel where my uterus and ovaries were. I walked out thinking, "That was awesome!" (And then laughing at myself for being a biology geek because I know that's not a typical reaction.)
DeleteYou might need a friend to go along. Lots of us freeze up in that situation - the combination of doctor/authority and vulnerable nakedness is really silencing even if you don't have traumas to be triggered.
DeleteAnd like everyone else said: feel free to go to a more feminist, kind doctor or nurse practitioner. They are out there.
I am a medical student who is the same way. I like to have everything explained to me and it makes me a much better patient (decreased anxiety) if the doctor cooperates. I have never had a pelvic exam done by a MD so it might be different but I have had NPs I really liked and NPs I didn't go back to, so shop around if that's possible for you. When I see patients I always tell them what I'm doing-they can (and do) tune me out if they don't care.
DeleteThis reminds me of one of the more recent episodes of Savage U. Dan gets asked via index-card how a pair of gay dudes decide who's gonna be on top vs bottom etc. He laments somewhat the fact that with straight sex it's somewhat assumed (not necessarily correctly) who's doing the penetrating and who's doing the getting penetrated (at least with vanilla sex.) He said he wishes that straight folx would pick up four words that are a necessary part of a lot of homosexual encounters: What Are You Into?
ReplyDeleteI think heteronormative society fucks us ladies in a lot of ways because, for one, it discourages us from playing with ourselves enough to have a half a clue what we're into in the first place, and this has the corollary effect of restricting comfort with what we're into. I think most vanilla folks fail to negotiate because 1) they're too scared to have this conversation (there was more in that episode about how difficult it is to negotiate what you're into when you're so afraid of revealing that you're into anything at all) 2) that they don't know what they're into (thanks, sex-negative culture) and 3) they default to standard heteronormative roles because they're perhaps unawares that sex can be any other way.
Stealing from "consent culture," it sounds like "negotiation culture." Really awesome to read. And I, for one, always find that the negotiating part a little foreplay-ey in itself so... Here here!
ReplyDeleteCliff, YOU. ARE. SPECTACULAR. My oh my, how I wish everyone communicated this well. Major rock star.
ReplyDeleteI love it :) glad to see you posting again.
ReplyDeletePS - recently discovered your blog - and I'm working my way through the Cosmocking series. I *LOVE* love love them. All my adult life (in Spain and the UK) I have wondered what the *hell* was going on with Cosmo. Now I've found someone who takes the piss out of them and makes me laugh so hard I cry while she's at it :)
When I read the part about "Cliff's Super Confident Sounding Guide To Life", I first tried to understand what does the practice of sounding have to do with anything on this post. After that I just felt rather silly.
ReplyDeleteAwesome post! Thank you!
J
I have no problem with the idea of sounding, but I have to wonder what a life with sounding as part of its core philosophy would look like.
DeleteOh, probably eating a lot of krill, seeing alternating water and sky but mostly water, and swimming and singing a great deal. ;)
Delete(When a whale dives to maximum depths, it is called sounding.)
Anonymouser
I ended up here clicking through webcomics, but I'm glad I stopped and read this.
ReplyDeleteI think communication during sex is something that is actually very difficult to get into the habit of. Shyness is a big part of it, yes, but personally a bigger barrier for me was worry that my partner would question my motives. The first person I ever slept with I went on to be in a monogamous relationship with for over a year and communication during/about sex was virtually nonexistent because of the pattern that had been set during that first encounter when I was a virgin and he wasn't and so took the lead. After a few months I felt like I couldn't express dissatisfaction at all because he would have wondered why, or thought I was cheating on him, or had been lying about enjoying sex previously (and he wasn't the sort of person who would have been able to have an adult discussion about it either).
ReplyDeleteI'm also not sure that "kink activities are no use to vanilla people" either...for the simple reason that I think a lot of 'vanilla people' are sadly unaware that sex can be different, or with partners who are unwilling to try new things, etc. Personally (and I know not everybody shares this view) I wouldn't say I wasn't X, or didn't enjoy X, until I'd tried it at least once.
Well, it's one thing if you never really thought about sex act X. But suppose you're fully aware that there are people out there doing X, and you just feel no excitement whatsoever picturing yourself doing X. It might even be that picturing yourself doing X is a big turn-off. I'd say in that case you're well justified in claiming that you're not into X. And it would be absurd to try something that's a big turn-off for you just for the sake of trying it. Like, if you find the idea of somebody pissing on you disgusting, the chances that you're suddenly gonna have this big revelation and orgasm from here to the moon if somebody pisses on you are pretty non-existent anyway.
ReplyDeleteIt's like that Dilbert cartoon where Dogbert makes him push potatoe chips up his nostrils because "how can you know you don't like it if you haven't tried it?".
Yeah, I know that not everyone thinks the same way. Personally though there isn't much that I find totally disgusting, and I have been surprised by my own reactions before so would probably try most anything once - particularly if a partner really wanted to try it and we had a proper discussion about it. I know that not everyone is like that though and I'm certainly not being judgemental, if you're sexually satisfied etc then why fix it if it ain't broken? I suppose the point I was trying to make is that just because you're generally vanilla (or inexperienced) doesn't mean the entire spectrum of kink activities would be of no use to you.
ReplyDeleteI think of myself as uber-vanilla, but it was a revelation to me that the various elements of BDSM were all completely orthogonal preferences -- you could be into one and not others at all. The whole dom/sub thing has never made the least sense to me, and as far as I'm concerned anything that's real pain is just pain, therefore evil. But mild stinging sensations? yeah. Flexing muscles against restraints? yeah. They're not something I need to have in a big way, but I can totally find them sexy.
DeleteWell, I think of myself as vanilla as well, but like most people (?) I've tried a little bondage and spanking at one time or another. Turned out it's not really my thing though. Although I love to bite my husband really hard when we have sex - maybe that counts as a little kink? It's hard to draw a precise line and go "that's kink, and that's vanilla", right?
DeleteAnyway, I'm not saying that people shouldn't experiment or try new stuff. I just thought the whole idea that you can never know if you're into something or not until you've tried it a little strange. I'm bi so this doesn't really apply to me, but I suppose it's perfectly possible to know that you're gay or straight for instance even if you've only had sex with one gender.
But I can see your point that it might be too exclusive to just write as Cliff did that "if you're not wired that way you're not wired that way". Maybe zie just wanted to point out that you're not, well, less enlightened or anything because you're not kinky, you're not obligated to try out kink if you don't feel like it. I think there's some old post of Cliff's that discusses precisely this attitude against vanilla people, or mono people for that matter.
Yeah you have a point about the gay/straight issue that I hadn't considered, although there are instances of 'straight' people who have been in relationships and even married with children for years coming out as gay later in life and almost everyone experiences some confusion at some point, I think (or at least a bit of experimentation). Personally I could (and have) enjoyed sex with both genders but have only ever fallen in love and been in fulfilling relationships with men so consider myself generally straight, if that makes sense.
DeleteI think you're right that it's very difficult to draw the line between 'kink' and 'vanilla'...at what point does quite rough sex cross the line, for example? Or sex with multiple partners? Do you have to be involved in the kink scene to 'count' as kinky? I also find that I can really enjoy 'kinky' activities as part of sex or foreplay but would probably never orgasm from them alone and certainly never experience the sort of reaction I've seen people describe on here.
To be honest I was only really speaking for myself and there's certainly nothing wrong with not trying new things if you're fulfilled and happy, just as there's nothing wrong with experimenting. I've never experienced the feeling of certainty that I wouldn't enjoy something but I agree if you do feel that way there's no point putting yourself through it.
About the gay/straight thing, I just remembered a story from when I was in my early twenties and member of a party-arranging university club (I guess a bit like American fraterneties or sororities, except for both genders). The head of the club was F, a guy who as far as everybody knew was completely gay. He was best friends with a girl called C. Eventually it was revealed that F and C hadn't only been best friends, but also had an affair behind the back of C:s boyfriend. C had been agonizing about which one to choose and eventually choose to break up the affair with F and stay with her boyfriend, and then the whole story unravelled.
DeleteAnyway, somebody naturally asked F if this meant he wasn't gay after all but rather bi. F said he still identified as gay, since although he'd really had a major crush on C, that was the ONLY time in his life he was ever sexually or romantically interested in a woman. She was the big exception to the rule.
Cliff has written that although zie's normally into men, zie can get the hots for women who are really butch. But that wasn't the case here, since C was pretty typically feminine in all ways. She was just an exception.
I wonder if that happens a lot? Maybe lots of people who normally identify as either straight or gay has had one or two exceptions in their life... Perhaps people just normally don't act out those feelings since it makes things complicated. Perhaps.
It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people *did* have "exceptions" and didn't admit to them for a lot of reasons. I'm pretty much a lesbian, but I remember having a short-lived but super-intense crush on this one guy when I was about 19. I mean, I got butterflies in my stomach when I saw him, I went to places I knew he would be just to have an excuse to run into him, the whole deal.
DeleteHe was admittedly really good-looking, but I'm generally not affected by good-looking men, so I'm not sure why I was so into him. I never told him anything about it or acted on my feelings, and eventually they faded. But I still clearly remember that as being the only time I was ever really interested in a man.
Maybe a big part of it is experimentation while young? I personally have a lot of time for the idea that sexuality is actually a sort of sliding scale, with 'exclusively attracted to the opposite gender' at one end and 'exclusively attracted to the same gender' at the other. Some people are right at one end or the other but most people would fall somewhere in between.
DeleteOne of my 'exceptions' was a very close friend who was a lesbian. Although I wouldn't say I had a crush on her (and I don't think she had a crush on me) I was, and am still, closer emotionally to her than I have been with any of my ex-boyfriends. I think when that's things can get very confusing because you know you have strong feelings for someone, like F and C's close friendship, which can be more emotionally stable and fulfilling than most relationships. But putting a name to these feelings and distinguishing them from romantic interest can be difficult in my experience, particularly when you're young or relatively inexperienced.
I can also appreciate attractive women if that makes sense? Like if my current (male) partner says that someone is hot, I'd be more inclined to agree or disagree rather than get offended.
I don't think I've ever clearly distinguished friend-feelings from romantic feelings myself, actually. For many people there's such a clear and obvious difference there, but not for me. Which obviously led to some unhappy crushes on straight female friends when I was younger...
DeleteI don't really think I can imagine being super-close friends with somebody while having strictly platonic feelings for them, nothing sexual or romantic AT ALL.
Fair enough...personally I have friends who I just do not find attractive whatsoever (male and female); I have friends who I initially thought about sexually but it faded away; and I have friends who have seen me in such embarrassing situations I doubt they'd ever think of me that way at all!!
DeletePersonally I can't imagine not being friends in some way with someone I was also sleeping with regularly (although either could come first!)I find that sometimes there's no real distinction, like nothing ever happens but you often wonder 'what if'... and sometimes there's definite chemistry.
Yeah, I think I'm a bit unusual on this point. But for instance, I work with a woman right now whom I would never consider sexually attractive if I just saw her. She really isn't my type physically. But just because we've worked together a lot now on a project and started to get closer and closer friendwise, I suddenly find her sexually attractive as well. It's just the way I'm wired, I suppose.
DeleteThe man I'm married to is also the person I'm absolutely closest to on all emotional levels. I understand that some people can have a platonic friend whom they're closer to on some points than they are to their spouse, but this seems weird to me (not wrong, just weird TO ME because I'm wired the way I'm wired).
For the shy ones out there, there is this awesome Yes/No/Maybe-list created by the kind folks over at Scarleteen! That could be used as a starting point for further communication about desires and boundaries.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.scarleteen.com/article/advice/yes_no_maybe_so_a_sexual_inventory_stocklist
I like that! I have such a bad time thinking of "Yes I want X, no I don't want Y" lists, so trying to have a planned negotiation is really hard, because if someone asks me "What do you want?" I tend to have trouble thinking of specific "I definitely want this" examples, so that's a good starting point for organizing thoughts. I've noticed several "Yes, this would be awesome" points, and few "No, I really don't want to do that at all ever" points already. (I really don't want to be on the receiving end of someone trying to sexualize my disability, for instance.)
DeleteHave you seen any of the stuff on Asker vs. Guesser culture? The basic idea is that some people are more used to interactions where you can outright ask for anything, but you have to expect that the answer might be "no," and some other people are more used to intuiting and hinting and hoping interactions will just fall into place.
ReplyDeleteMe, I'm a big "asker." The most relieving part about finding out I had a nonverbal learning disorder (besides getting to go, "Oh, thank god, there's a reason I did so bad in math class and still can't read maps") was learning that other people really did have more trouble than me when it came to talking about stuff, and not relying on eyebrow wiggles. I was actually shocked when I learned some people just don't think to say/are turned off by hearing, "Hey, wanna have sex?"
I tend to default to being a Guesser when it comes to personal stuff. Which is inconvenient, because I'm not very good at it and asking usually works better, but it feels pushy and intrusive and wrong. So my intellect is telling me to ask, not assume, and try to put things into words whenever it's not completely obvious, but my instincts and emotions are going "No, ask indirect questions and look at their body language and feel them out! Don't ask directly so you don't put anyone on the spot!"
DeleteCliff, you never fail to rock my world. I'm saving this post. Thank you for saying this so perfectly!
ReplyDeleteI am a recent convert to the value of negotiating scenes. As I am a bit shy (especially about asking for things as a submissive) I find writing things down is easier, although not foolproof (but what is?!): http://therighteousharlot.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/sex-homework-scene-2.html
ReplyDeleteStop blaming the dog.
ReplyDeleteSincerely,
the guy in the next room :)
If I can't let 'em rip in the privacy of my own room, man, the American Dream is dead.
DeleteI'm just saying, I think dogs have to deal with enough slander. Don't contribute to the Humanocracy of this world. :-p
DeleteThe biggest thing for me was realizing that sex was just as much an activity as BDSM. Sex is put on this pedestal in rape culture, held up as some kind of thing or reward, when really it's an activity just like any other.
ReplyDeleteSo that then logically means that you can have a committed relationship without sex, a non-committed relationship with sex, be uninterested in sex, less interested in sex, and so on...and it's all okay.
You can even have points in an otherwise loving relationship (like mine) where sex is pushed to the background without it meaning that you're "about to break up" or that something's wrong. In our case, it just means that my partner and I are working through some hard-core body and emotional issues that make sex (and kinky activities) just counterproductive right now. But we look forward to an even more fulfilling sex life (and re-establishing our D/s relationship) once these things are worked through.
It was huge when I realized that. Thanks for helping me get there Cliff! :D
I read an article about an awesome high school sex ed teacher who (among other things) asked his students to abandon the typical "sex as a sport" metaphor (with all the bases and scoring and competition and winning) and adopt a "sex as pizza" metaphor instead.
DeleteSome people like pizza more than others, and that's okay. Some people like tomatoes on their pizza while others prefer pepperoni, and that's okay too. When you're sharing a pizza with someone, you need to have a discussion of what everyone wants on it and how hungry they are so that everybody ends up happy. Etc.
I love the pizza metaphor and wish more people subscribed to it!
That's absolutely genius!
DeleteReading this comment not two minutes after I ordered pizza with my girlfriend (who I will probably later also "order pizza" with), I am on board.q
DeleteI too am loving the pizza metaphor!
DeleteAnd, you can eat a whole (small, perhaps) pizza yourself and there is nothing wrong with that. Indeed, you may be a lot happier with your own personal pizza than eating someone else's sardines-and-pineapple if that's not your thing.
DeleteAnd, just because you ordered pepperoni today doesn't mean you can't have Hawaiian tomorrow.
Yeah, I like it a lot. I've also heard "sex as jazz improv" and that works great if you're into jazz, but is not as universally easy to understand as pizza. My only concern is that some people might stray into fat-hating territory ("pizza is evil because it has OMG FAT in it!" doesn't play well with this metaphor).
This seems semi-relevant because I'm reading and MSTing Fifty Shades of Grey. (What? It's cheaper than therapy, and I ALWAYS eat my food when I'm reading/mocking and eating at the same time.)
ReplyDeleteLong story short, originally Twilight BDSM fanfiction, got the serial numbers filed off and published as erotic romance, and for all the "dom's" declarations that he's into consent... he never ever asks before pulling the woman's hair, or biting her feet, or even mentioning fucking SAFEWORDS. He just has her sign a non-disclosure agreement, shows her his goddamn dungeon and immediately goes straight to trying to make her his 24/7 slave.
NEGOTATION. DO IT.
I just knew when Redbook ran a little blurb about it that it wouldn't be a shining example of BDSM ideals. Or just consent in general.
DeleteOr good.
I read a review that also said the woman seems to be almost mentally challenged, since she's so EXTREMELY naive and innocent when it comes to sex. Haven't read it myself though, but that would make it even more disturbing.
DeleteWhat's most worrisome is just how popular it is. Last time I took a foray into romance, it was also atrocious. (It was mediocre up until stalking, kidnapping and rape were shown as good things.) That there's a market for this sort of thing is so large speaks to much deeper problems.
DeleteI read once a psychological theory about why many women (apparently) fantasize about being raped (and 50 shades of Gray sounds like a rape story, if there's no real negogiation and suddenly she's his sex slave). It's that women are still taught that there's something a bit BAD about having a sex drive, at least if you want untraditional sex, sex with strangers or the like, anything but completely "normal" sex with a committed boyfriend. Because of this, it might be difficult to fantasize about, say, consensual BDSM or meeting a really hot stranger and have sex with him, since you're gonna have feelings of guilt that ruins the fantasy for you. But in a rape scenario you're innocent, so no need to feel guilty.
DeleteI'm not a psychologist so I have no idea if this theory is valid, but if it is, it's pretty sad.
I think being afraid to admit to wanting things is a reason for some women, but it'd be oversimplifying to claim it was the reason for women having rape fantasies. There are a lot of reasons and it's complicated and variable. I've had my share of rape fantasies, and while I can't exactly say why I like them, they're definitely not a case of "I don't have to admit to having any desires!"
DeleteI think the problem with Fifty Shades of Gray is the cultural context, not the story itself. I think it should be acceptable for people to have fantasies about non-healthy non-consensual BDSM scenarios, create fiction about them, and sell that to other interested adults. If we lived in a culture that embraced consent and recognized that "It's not consensual and everything is hot and awesome!" was just as much of a specialized and unrealistic kink as vore, instead of being tangled up in unpleasant and messy ways with the default sexual script, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.
This may seem like an odd point to make, given that we don't live in that culture, but I want to make the distinction. Because it's easy to unintentionally blur the line between "The social context of how this particular kink is presented is kind of screwed-up and sexist" and "You shouldn't want this!"
Good point, Anonymous. I agree.
DeleteAnon 2:10: If we were only talking about a tiny subgenre, you'd have a point. 50 Shades is a top seller, as was Twilight before it.
DeleteI'm not saying that nobody should be able to read or write on whatever crazy fetishistic themes they want. When one fantasy is popular enough to become an appreciable cultural force, that merits looking into. It's a matter of scope.
I'm not sure how much we're actually disagreeing. It sounds like you're agreeing that it's okay for people to read and write whatever fetishistic themes they want, and that the books are an issue because they're a cultural force. Which fits with my point that the problem is not the specifics of the fantasy, but the cultural context.
DeleteI don't want people to stop analyzing and critiquing the books, or the cultural ideas behind them. I just wanted to add a bit of clarification so anyone seeing this kind of discussion would know that the problems are that there isn't enough cultural recognition of how much unrealistic fantasy-logic the books employ, and how they're presented as the fantasy for women (instead of a fantasy for some people). I know it's easy for someone unfamiliar with these kinds of critiques to stumble in and get the mistaken impression that the discussions are criticisms of anyone who has these kinds of fantasies.
My point is more that things like Twilight/50 Shades wouldn't become the cultural forces they are if there weren't already a market for them. It's worth asking why such female-passive works so readily find an audience. (As mentioned below, it's not because other options are not available.) Also worth asking is why works with shitty/nonexistent communication take off.
DeleteAfter that, once you get into why the shitty communication/magical mindreading partner theme is so popular*, you can start trying to add healthier alternatives to the cultural lexicon. Calling popular things problematic without asking what makes them popular first strikes me as trying to rewrite society based on pure ideology.
*(Tangent: It's worth comparing the popularity of the magical mind-reading dominant trope with that of the manic pixie dream girl. Several things about both of them - most notably, how often they recur and how they only seem to exist as props for the protagonist - seem like they could make for an informative compare/contrast.)
Well, I know that part of the reason why I like nonexistent communication/magical mindreading as a fantasy is because communication is effort. It involves putting my thoughts and desires into words, phrasing the words so the other person has a good chance of understanding them, clarifying and correcting miscommunications, and repeating the process even when it's kind of distracting and I'd prefer to have my mind on something else. These things are obviously vitally necessary, but they're not fun. (Not because I'm afraid to admit my desires, but because it's effort, and distracting, and often slightly tedious.)
DeleteRealistic non-communication would obviously be far worse, but unrealistic fantasy non-communication is much nicer, because it involves all of the awesome things about communicative sex (getting what you want, not having to worry about doing something immoral to your partner) without the unpleasant effort.
In terms of making the cultural ideas healthier, I'd encourage more explicit recognition that it is an unrealistic fantasy (many people reading stuff like Fifty Shades of Gray already know this, but there seems to be a number of people who aren't entirely aware of that). And it definitely seems to make a difference for some people to see communication and consent written in a way that's meant to be sexy, instead of intentionally shown as clunky and awkward. (Although some people simply aren't going to find those versions thrilling, so it needs to be making people aware of the possibilities, not insisting they like them.) I think both those things would improve the cultural script around sex without demonizing people's fantasies ("This would not be a good idea in the real world" isn't particularly unfair or negative) or trying to rewrite society based on pure ideology.
(I think there's a connection to the Manic Pixie Dream Girl in as much as both fantasies involve having someone else come in and give you what you want without having to make the effort to seek or ask for it. Which is fairly common fantasy material, actually. Lots of people love to imagine being instantly rich, talented, desirable, or otherwise getting what they want without effort.)
Yeah, as in Diane Duane's Door Into Fire, where getting what you want without having to ask is a hallmark of sex with the Goddess. But, y'know, most of us ... not goddesses.
DeleteWhat really, realy bothers me about 50 shakes of grey, Twillight, Story of O, is their that these are supposed to be what every women fantasies about! It is the patriarical idea that women are just supposed to love being dominated...Story of O was especially disturbing to me cuz she was a complete slave to the point she allinated herself.....it also completely erases women who are swtiches, doms, or don't even like BDSM
ReplyDeleteI hang out in fandom a lot, and there have been people talking about the consent issues in 50 Shades. The funny thing, though, is that the rest of the complaints aren't, "oh my stars and garters, it's so pornographic." Rather, they're more like, "damn, this is the worst porn I've ever read. Somebody point this author to a few choice LJ entries so she can learn how to write a sex scene that's actually hot."
DeleteIt's not that femdom stories don't exist. Typing "Female Supremacy" into Amazon lists a decent number of hits. The most popular coming in at 240,000th best selling.
DeleteNow take a quick look at their top three best sellers. I'll wait.
This isn't The Patriarchy forcing certain narratives down anybody's throat. For one, other options abound. For another, I seriously doubt men are a significant share of 50 Shades' readership. This is individuals making individual choices, and then looking for patterns within those choices.
It may not specifically be a bunch of men forcing these narratives, but that doesn't mean it isn't a manifestation of the patriarchy. Cosmo surely is, after all, and that's largely by-women-for-women. One of the big points about drawing attention to the patriarchy (or kyriarchy, as it's often called these days) is to show how many women are complicit without realizing it.
DeleteWomen getting hired to beat up men was even more of a stereotype fifty years ago. Didn't mean they had more actual power in the world -- by all obvious measures they had less.
It's not that "The Patriarchy" is solely responsible for women's submission fantasies. It's that there are lots of ways to act out those fantasies/dynamics that don't involve real-life oppression and considering women inferior. I haven't read it, but my impression is that "50 Shades" equates sexual submission to the man running the woman's life 24/7.
ReplyDelete*That's* the partriarchal part - that women who may be curious about their submissive desires but don't run in BDSM circles are presented with this particular story hyped all over the media, rather than the many stories that present a healthier model. (And are better written to boot!)
50 Shades spread by word of mouth. I can't find much on its rise from obscure fanfic to cultural force, but I'm pretty sure communication-positive stories are out there that are in the same position it was before it took off. That's what makes it worth asking why stories with zero communication take off far more often than ones that model better communication. Same reason it's worth asking why Cosmo has such broad readership, when several blogs with healthier advice are out there, that update more often, and are free.
ReplyDeleteYES this times a thousand. With my sub and I, the pre-scene conversation is usually as follows:
ReplyDelete"Any limits tonight besides the usual?"
"Hm.. nope, I think we're good."
And that's that. Vanilla couples don't actually have a "usual" list of limits they both know by heart, do they? I find that almost odd, having never been in a vanilla relationship.