A consent culture is one in which the prevailing narrative of sex--in fact, of human interaction--is centered around mutual consent. It is a culture with an abhorrence of forcing anyone into anything, a respect for the absolute necessity of bodily autonomy, a culture that believes that a person is always the best judge of their own wants and needs.
I don't want to limit it to sex. A consent culture is one in which mutual consent is part of social life as well. Don't want to talk to someone? You don't have to. Don't want a hug? That's okay, no hug then. Don't want to try the fish? That's fine. (As someone with weird food aversions, I have a special hatred for "just taste a little!") Don't want to be tickled or noogied? Then it's not funny to chase you down and do it anyway.
The good news is, there are things you can do to bring this about. Things beyond just "don't rape people" (although that's an excellent start).
Ways You Can Work Toward The Creation Of a Consent Culture
1. Don't rape people. It does bear saying. And I don't just mean "don't put on a ski mask and jump on strangers in dark alleys" rape, either. Don't have sex with someone who is not unambiguously, enthusiastically, and continually consenting. Don't have sex with someone who says "I guess so" or "okay, fine" (unless they are grinning lasciviously as they say this). Don't convince someone to have sex. If they don't want you, really want you from the bottom of their heart and/or groin, respect that.
2. When someone doesn't want to have sex with you and so you don't, talk about it. Share that you're bummed but also that you take pride in your ability to take it gracefully.
When you didn't want to have sex with someone and so they stopped, talk about it. Share that despite the awkwardness you're glad they took it gracefully.
These are tough things to discuss (in part because they sound kind of Captain Obvious, like, no shit it was nice of you not to rape someone), but they're important narratives to put out there. Others' stories shape our ideas about sex, and hearing stories that fall outside the "have sex or you're a failure" mindset are important in changing those ideas.
3. When someone tells you about pressuring or tricking someone into sex (and you're in a situation where it's safe to do so), call them the hell out on it. "That's not cool. It doesn't sound like he/she wanted it." You don't have to use the R word, you don't have to tell them they should be arrested, you don't have to call them a rapist piece of shit--you just have to make it clear they're not getting any goddamn high fives. When you hear someone bragging about sex like it was a prank they pulled on their partner, bring the mood in the room the hell down.
You can do this with fictional stories, too. You don't even have to be no-fun then. "Wow, you guys, 'Baby It's Cold Outside' is totally a date rape song." Without requiring a rant or a buzzkill, it just quietly plants the idea that no, that is not a "totally legit way to get sex" song.
4. When you see something that looks abusive or nonconsensual going on, don't turn your back. At least be a witness--just the presence of another person can be someone's biggest guarantee of safety. Stepping in and checking if everything's okay is even better.
5. Ask before touching people. Say "do you want a hug?" and if they say no then don't hug them--and also don't give them any shit about not being friendly or affectionate. Don't make a big deal out of it, just make it part of your touching-people procedure. If they say "you don't need to ask!" nod and smile and keep on asking.
6. Negotiate sex! Explicitly negotiate sex play, and BDSM play if you do that. Be eminently clear about the fact that play is not a package deal for you, and your partner is free to change their mind about any part of it at any time--as are you. Err on the side of blunt, and say corny shit like "can I kiss you now?" and "I'd like to touch your chest."
Once in a blue moon (really not as often as some people would have you think), you may run into a partner who refuses to negotiate, or who says "I would have done it before you killed the mood by asking." Do not have sex or play with this person. Their loss. This is you putting the principle of "consent matters" above the principle of "have sex at all costs!", and you can brag about it when you're busy changing narratives.
7. Re-negotiate sex! While I don't think every step of "can I kiss you now?" is necessary in a long-term relationship (although Rowdy and I really do ask every time about intercourse), it's important to keep talking about what you want and don't want. You're not strangers anymore, no, but you're also not merged into the same person. Keep active consent alive in your relationships.
8. Learn to love consent. I worry that I've made getting consent sound like a chore. It's anything but. Asking for consent is a moment of delicious tension, of emotional connection.
A "yes" brings the joy of knowing someone is really hot for you, really wants you. It means that they're going to not just go along with but be into the stuff that comes next. That's not "prerequisite checked off," that's "awesome, this is going to be so much better now."
A "yes, conditionally" helps you be a better lover to them, someone who can give them just what they want and nothing they don't want.
9. Learn to appreciate "no." A "no, not at all" is bittersweet--or okay, sometimes it's fucking crushing--but it brings some finality and certainty with it. If you're not going to have sex anyway (and you're not, unless you were going to rape this person), at least you get to banish the "maybe I could have, why didn't I try" thoughts.
Remember that ultimately asking for consent is not asking someone to make a decision whether they want sex with you or not. That decision's going to get made, one way or another. Asking for consent is simply asking to know about that decision.
10. Talk about consent. Make consent part of the stories you tell about sex. Just a natural part of the process, something that ought to be taken for granted will be part of a sex story.
"So last night I asked Sandra if she wanted to hook up and she totally said yes."
"Ohmygod, Jane asked me to have sex with her, and it was awwwwesome."
"I heard that Rob and Josie--I'll totally kill you if you tell anyone--totally agreed to have sex at Jesse's party!"
"Kirk laid Spock tenderly across the science console and whispered hoarsely in the Vulcan's pointed ear, 'Do you want this? Do you want me inside you?'"
11. Bring consent out of the bedroom. I think part of the reason we have trouble drawing the line "it's not okay to force someone into sexual activity" is that in many ways, forcing people to do things is part of our culture in general. Cut that shit out of your life. If someone doesn't want to go to a party, try a new food, get up and dance, make small talk at the lunchtable--that's their right. Stop the "aww c'mon" and "just this once" and the games where you playfully force someone to play along. Accept that no means no--all the time.
Beyond what's necessary for their health and education (and even that touches iffy territory), I don't believe in doing this to kids, either. The size and social-authority advantages an adult has over kids shouldn't be used to force them to play games or accept hugs or go down the big slide. That sets a bad, scary precedent about the sort of thing it's okay to use your advantages over someone for.
It's good to practice drawing your own boundaries outside of the bedroom, too. It can be shockingly empowering to say something as small as "no, I don't want to sit with you." "No, you can't have my phone number." "I love hugs, but please ask me first." It's good practice for the big stuff. Simply learning to put your mind in the frame of "this person does not want me to say no to them, and they will resist me doing it, but I'm doing it anyway" is a big, important deal.
Consent culture is a tough thing to build. I think it's got a foothold in BDSM--we at least talk big about consent--but it's far from established here. It's barely starting to get tiny little footholds in the mainstream culture. But it grows in little microcultures, tiny bubbles of sex-positivity and circles of friends where consent is the norm, and it has potential to grow so much more. Give it a hand. Make it part of your own life, and it becomes just a little bit bigger part of the world. Start living consent culture.
I’ve been reading your blog for just over a year now, and I don’t think I’ve commented at all, but a lot of the things you write about I find very empowering and wonderful.
ReplyDeleteThis in particular stood out to me, and I wanted to share with you that at least in my personal corner of the world we have started a lot of consensual culture, my girlfriend and I have always asked before sex and talked about it if one of us wasn’t in the mood, and that its really wonderful to even ask her if I can kiss her and have her say yes, it makes it even more wonderful each time.
Thank you.
I like the article. I like the line of thought it aims at creating. But the comment about kids, it works with the examples you give, but not across the board. The authority that you have as a parent is not only authority, it's responsibility. If the child doesn't want to do their homework, you can't just say, "Ohhh, OK!" If a child is backing out of a commitment last minute, because of nerves, you must build up their confidence, and help them push on through the challenge! A parent has a responsibility to teach a child the value of the activities that they otherwise would object to. A parent has the responsibility to teach a child responsibility. Responsibility isn't always fun, but it must be a quality you posses to be a functional adult. Using fear as the motivator is certainly a bad idea, but a child doesn't always know what's best for them, that's the parent's job.
ReplyDelete"Kirk laid Spock tenderly across the science console and whispered hoarsely in the Vulcan's pointed ear, 'Do you want this? Do you want me inside you?'"
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
srsly, awesome post, holly!
I loved this, too...and I want to read the whole story, because I think it's got to be hot! :)
DeleteLittlejadegirl - I think that a parent has to be really aware of their power and only use it when it's absolutely necessary.
ReplyDelete(I also have to say that this is one area I probably shouldn't be talking about because I have no practical experience and no objectivity. I had an abusive parent and I never want to have kids myself. And one of the effects of the abuse has been to make me completely wary of disciplining kids because the whole idea of forcing a child into anything just fills me with not-really-about-this-discussion terror.)
It's one thing to make a kid keep a commitment, but not all of the "activities they would otherwise object to" are things they have to do. I think that even with a very small kid, parents should at least give the kids areas of their life in which they ask the kid "do you want this?" and take the kid's answer at face value.
Truthfully, any parent ought to have the welfare of their child at heart at all times. I can understand your personal issue with it, but getting your child's permission to parent them is not the solution. A good parent considers ANYTHING they make a child do as being necessary and important to their health and education, particularly including their mental, emotional and future adult health. I'm sorry you didn't have that, but I assure you, it is possible. Making a child apologize when it would embarrass them, making a child tell the truth when it involves admitting something they did wrong, making a child learn self-control, purpose and commitment; every one of these things is hard, usually involves some force, but teaches a valuable lesson in the end. Truth be told, it's rare that we have to force our child at this point, he's extremely well behaved, which I think is the result of the right kind of parenting, and yes, occasional force. His real mother had him in a very abusive environment, and at first when he came to live with us, there was a LOT more force required, just to get him comfortable, confident, emotionally healthy, adjusted and well-behaved. It was totally worth it, and I'm proud to say that I would do it again in a minute.
DeleteHolly P, I had an abusive parent as well. I was on the far side of 30 by the time I had my child. You're right that "a parent has to be aware of their power and only use it when it's absolutely necessary." A parent, to a child, looks huge enough as it is. I promised myself that I would not hit or scare my child with discipline, nor would I force my child to do something if he just didn't have it in him to do it (including attending school a few times). I've helped him with homework when he was crying, or any other time he needed help. Today he's a top-notch student in a top-notch university, going for his master's. I would talk A LOT to my child about feelings as well as give him boundaries. All kids need boundaries because it shows that "I love you and want you to be safe." Explain the reasons for the boundaries instead of simply saying "because I said so." You can give a child plenty of leeway in their life without letting them get away with things that are harmful to their well-being. Showing you love them with hugs and kisses, telling them you love them every day - these go a long way to help a child feel special, loved, wanted, and cared for. I know there are people who are afraid to allow their kids to feel special. Frankly, I don't understand that. Maybe it's because I waited so long to have a child that, when he did come along, he was automatically special to me. Discuss issues with the child. Even a small child understands words and inflections. Give them choices. Asking them, "Do you want this?" is great, because it helps empower them and allows them to learn that they have every right to make choices. Let them be creative. Don't force them to do something because it's your long-held dream. In short, go with what the child's interests are and feed their interests. Allow them to shine. There's absolutely NO NEED for physical discipline and emotional abuse as far as I'm concerned.
DeleteThank you for writing this amazing blog. I don't always have the time to keep up with it, but a friend brought this post to my attention.
DeleteI am a mother of a small child, and I believe that one of a good parent's responsibilities is to teach their child to make choices.
Doing this means providing children with opportunities to make as many choices as they can handle, helping them understand the options they have, and helping them understand the outcomes of their choices, while protecting them from damaging options.
It's OK to let a small child go to school wearing inside out, or backwards clothes, or things that don't match, but that they picked out and put on themselves. It's not OK to let a child go outside without a coat in poor weather. It's OK to let a child eat peanut butter sandwiches for every meal (as long as they get adequate nutrition somehow). It's not OK to let them eat candy for every meal. It is important to talk, simply and repeatedly, about how different choices are going. The goal is to help them learn, and for the child to be able to take on greater and greater responsibility for their own choices as they mature.
Of course parents are generally trying to do this while working full time, sleep deprived, and often financially short, so the goal and the reality don't always meet, but that is one of the goals, anyway.
I think the best way to institute this is by changing the way we look at those who are most vulnerable in society, specifically children. It is completely acceptable to so many people to force young children to hug and kiss people, even when it's clear they don't want to. It seriously turns my stomach to think that, from such a young age, we are taught that our bodies are not ours to control, that it's good to ignore our own feelings and just give other people what they want from us. And that whole "Smile! Don't cry!" thing people do to kids? Yeah, that's not okay either. I really think that's where this whole problem with consent begins, when children are taught that their bodies are essentially the possessions of their parents. They're forced into so many things, and there really are simple ways to make children feel empowered and in control of their lives and their bodies without total chaos.
ReplyDeleteIt reminds me of a scene from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, when Neville tries to stop Harry, Ron, and Hermione from going to confront the villain and getting themselves in trouble again. They tell him to go back to bed, and he says, "you were the one who told me to stand up to people!" Ron responds, "Yes, but not to us." That's what parents expect of children in this society: stand up for yourself, but not to me, I'm your parent, with me you must be strictly obedient!
Thank you for your comment, Morrigan, it really resonated with me.
DeleteI was among those told that I should hug older relatives as a natural form of greetings, whether I wanted to or not. That made it very hard for me to set my own boundaries when I was around eleven and my grandfather did more than hug me.
DeleteI don't have any children, and don't plan on having any, but I'm very happy that my sister has always steadfastly championed her children's right to their own body.
I love this, and I love the direction that the world would go if this were the norm (aside from the food part... people that have no interest in expanding beyond their wonderbread diet irk the fuck out of me, but hey that's a personal preference when it comes to personalities), but then I apply it to my own life and experience and do a double take, because, well... I rarely give clear consent.
ReplyDeleteI dunno, does that make me a bad guy in this hypothetical world of enthusiastic consent?
I mean, the first time I fooled around with a guy was only after being with him for a weekend at a convention. He ended up initiating, and my mental response was along the lines of "durrrrr okay". Had a great time. If he'd flat out asked me? I probably wouldn't have known what to say, the moment would have been ruined, and I'd never have actually been de-virginized. It's taken me 2 years of sex to figure out how to say anything remotely affirmative in the MIDDLE of sex, let alone before it even starts. If it were up to me, nothing would ever happen. And honestly? I'm okay with that. He--my husband, actually--knows that it's okay to initiate whenever, even if I don't give him an enthusiastic "yes!".
My sexuality is just weird like that. I'm also a sub/bottom, so initiating doesn't really jive with me. I just thank my lucky stars that I landed quite an excellent catch who can read me like an open book, and, should it ever come to it, would be okay with me saying "no".
Now I know that only applying this rubric to the dating scene and stuff is just asking for trouble (marital rape much?) but I feel that those of us who feel we're in a good position to do the exact OPPOSITE of what you outlined above should have an out that doesn't villify us. Then again, I'm sure you knew all of that already, and understand, when you break it down enough, it's still the same shit... but shhh don't tell the BDSM people cause it'll ruin their fun.
This is just ... no. A big steaming pile of no.
DeleteIf you negotiate in a preexisting relationship that your consent can be assumed unless specifically withdrawn, that's part of what a relationship is. You can stretch those boundaries because you have a foundation of trust and communication.
But to make statements like "if it's meant to be, he'll know" and "I want a man who's man enough to take what he wants", you send the message that girls use "no" to mean "convince me". Not just you, but girls in general. It's a tad hypocritical to hear how horrible it is when men internalise those messages, when the same people then turn around and propagate them.
I didn't perceive "Anon's" comment the same way - I've read it a few times over now and I'm still trying to figure out how one could derive those "statements" from it.
DeleteI can relate to her situation; not everyone is equally verbally communicative. And tacitness does not necessarily indicate shyness or lack of enthusiasm. Sex aside, I can think of many social situations where I may have been misread because I'm not constantly sharing my thoughts or opinions aloud.
I do agree, however, that a clear understanding should be made before any action is taken. This requires both/all parties being honest, and communicating truthfully in the best way they know how. Introverts hear the same criticism over and over: "Learn to speak up! Share your thoughts! Assert yourself!" But it can also go the other way - it is just as important to learn how to correctly interpret other indicators of emotion.
I am also tired of people taking a "no" as "convince me". Learning to take a statement at face value definitely requires an exercise in honesty on the whole. Imagine how much easier it would be if people just told the truth all the time!
The flip side of "wonderbread diet" is "foods with certain textures will literally make me puke, and I'm saying a very polite 'no thank you' when I'm actually thinking AUGH DON'T EVEN MAKE ME LOOK AT THAT."
ReplyDeleteSo that's why you shouldn't get too pushy with the "just try a little bit!" on someone you don't know very, very well.
A good parent considers ANYTHING they make a child do as being necessary and important to their health and education
ReplyDeleteProblem is, so does a bad one.
Like I said, this gets deeply into my personal issues, so I'm not going to belabor it. But the whole idea of "parents know what's best for their kid" makes me very, very uneasy.
I've been moving more and more in the direction of this kind of thing. Yeah, it seems like my friend would like this experience... but by the point you start saying 'aw, just try a little!'... you've generally lost them anyway. With very few exceptions, I have never seen this strategy succeed.
ReplyDeleteI'm also working on saying no more effectively. My primary/boyfriend don't always have the best communication, and I realized that I feel shitty when I turn him down because I can see the crestfallen look... but I've recently decided that the crestfallen look is better than what I give up in letting it control me.
I'm quite proud of how good I am at happily accepting no, though. It's a skill I have honed!
While I totally, completely agree about consent regarding sex and physical interference, I work in a job where I have to deal with people day in and day out who use "I don't WAAANNNTTT to" as an excuse to dodge their responsibilities, which then ends up affecting and hurting other people.
ReplyDeleteWhat if a doctor doesn't want to help a certain patient? Should they be forced to? What if some businesses don't want to cater to a specific group of people? What if a person doesn't want to leave another person's house? or the middle of the street?
Anon - I think this only works in the spheres of sex and socialization, and has limited application in areas where you have real obligations to others. (There's certainly work to be done in which of those obligations are legitimate, but the answer isn't "none of them.") I wouldn't try applying it to businesses or to most matters of law. "I don't consent to not committing a crime" is pretty goofy logic.
ReplyDeleteI love that you're putting non-sexual activities under the umbrella of "consent culture." (Not that it's not important in relation to sex! Just that these other areas are so very important and so often ignored.) I especially love that you're including just try this-just let me touch you-just be "normal" aspects of social interaction, as well as acknowledging the rights of children. I've been questioning a lot of what I think about the world, and the idea of consent culture (thanks for the term!) as an overarching part of how we all interact with each other is really important to me. It feels really great to see other people starting conversations about it.
ReplyDeletePoint #11 is some interesting food for thought. I don't think I've ever thought about the fact that we are often forced to do things (even little things) quite frequently, but on the other hand, this really does bother me about our culture.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I recently came across a pretty cool anti-rape campaign aimed at college-aged men that I think is an excellent step forward: http://feministing.com/2012/01/12/new-men-can-stop-rape-ads-rock/
As economic behavior models indicate, people are extremely risk averse to "no" and will do anything to avoid that situation. Even if it means having unwanted sex to avoid hurt feelings. The most important part of consent culture is acclimating people to disappointment.
ReplyDeleteStop the "aww c'mon" and "just this once" and the games where you playfully force someone to play along. Accept that no means no--all the time.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. I especially support this as it applies to food aversions and picky eating. Sorry to geek out since this is really about sexual consent, but there are parallels here - and the more a person is pressured to eat food they're not comfortable with, the more entrenched food aversions become.
I love this one, too. This issue is particularly frustrating for me. Not for food aversions, per say, but for different reasons: I've got Celiac disease, so I can't eat (or don't trust) 99% of the food offered to me. I bring my own food, or eat before I go out, to avoid being sickened by hidden gluten. CONSTANTLY I am cajoled to "Oh, give it a try," or "I'm SURE it doesn't have gluten in it!" or "Just a taste can't hurt, right?" and I have forcefully had to turn down food being shoved into my hands (I don't like to touch gluten, as once it's on my hands I have to wash A LOT to ensure I don't sicken myself by cross-contamination).
DeleteMost people aren't this forceful about it and accept a simple "Oh, no, thank you very much." It's the ones that say "No?! But if you just taste it..." that I don't trust.
@AnonymousJan 18, 2012 08:16 PM
ReplyDeleteYou might find this an interesting read:
http://enagoski.wordpress.com/2010/02/27/do-you-know-when-you-want-it/
The writer probably doesn't acknowledge enough that not all women-identified people have responsive desire and not all men-identified people have spontaneous desire, but her point (and *the* point) is that we should be aware that the two forms exist and are equally valid. I've experienced both at different times.
(there's also this, about agency and communication within a sub/bottom role, and how being a sub/bottom involves skills that often go unnoticed - it sounds like you and your partner have a negotiated system that works for you, so it's not a comment on that, I just found it an interesting read:
http://www.rolereboot.org/sex-and-relationships/details/2012-01-submissive-skills )
I love this post today Holly (I've been reading your blog for some time and I admire your work but I rarely comment on any blogs) but when I think about enthusiastic consent I do wonder how we as people who want to bring about a consent culture deal with this issue of responsive desire. I think the main tool for that is point #6 "Be eminently clear about the fact that play is not a package deal for you".
I think so many people still don't function like that -- it's taken me finding a partner who was totally ok with stopping things at any time if I felt like it (no crestfallen look!) for me to realise quite how often I used to end up doing things with unenthusiastic consent with previous partners, simply because the culture had given me no way of articulating that "no, just because we have started doing x doesn't mean we have to continue on to do y" thing. Even though those previous partners were loving and kind and respectful. They were not pressuring me, I was functioning under the script that the culture gives us: sex is a package deal. So empowering to fully realise that it's not!
> Once in a blue moon (really not as often as
ReplyDelete> some people would have you think), you may
> run into a partner who refuses to negotiate,
> or who says "I would have done it before you
> killed the mood by asking."
If only it really were once in a blue moon. *sigh*
I conservatively estimate that about three quarters of the female population are significantly more likely to be enthusiastic about having sex if they aren't asked first. This a highly undesirable state of affairs for all parties concerned, but pretending it isn't true doesn't help anyone.
If you ask me, the most important and urgent change society needs to make here is not "men should ask" but "women need to stop being actively turned off when men do ask".
It's probably partly down to evolutionary biology. Women are attracted to confidence, and people in general tend to respond to another person in the way that the other person's non-verbal signals make it clear that they expect to be responded to. If someone has an air of authority and expects people to do what he says, most people do, without thinking. Or, conversely, if someone expects other people not to like him, people won't. So when someone is sexually direct - assumes that the response will be positive without having to ask - that is inevitably attractive.
I suspect it is also partly because of social conditioning - women are still taught that it is wrong for them to want sex; consequently, many women don't want to feel like they are choosing to have it - they want to be able to tell themselves that it's not their responsibility, or that they couldn't help themselves. There's also a weird romantic myth that one is supposed to be so swept away by the strength of one's feelings that words aren't necessary.
Again, undesirable; but again, it's pointless to deny that it is endemic.
> "Wow, you guys, 'Baby It's Cold Outside' is
> totally a date rape song."
I must admit to being relieved that I'm not the only person who thinks that. :-)
Heh. I'm remembering a case where a fairly well-known feminist blogger, who probably identifies herself as a good little sex-pozzie, caused a major snit because a co-worker propositioned her. Once, politely, and let it drop when declined. But the NERVE of him!
DeleteThat's the trick to sex-positive feminist utopias. Feminist utopias in general, really. It's not just a question of what Everybody Else has to do. It's how the person making the statement has to adjust their own personal reward structure. Not complaining about Holly's post (it has flaws, but it's unrealistic to expect perfection from a blog post). More the general "how do I, personally, encourage the sort of behaviour I'm asking for?"
I've seen some of this myself -- where people are turned off by explicit requests for consent. Definitely a sign of a sick culture.
DeleteI have two thoughts about that. One, "don't have sex with those people" is a good strategy but can easily result in celibacy if you live in certain parts of the country. So if conservative, submissive partners who don't want to talk about sex are the only ones around, my thought is to make the asking for consent part of the flirting and an expression of confidence. It can be awkward for people who aren't used to it to be asked "Is this okay?" repeatedly. But I'm imagining whispering a sexy invitation to come home with you in a date's ear and then later, asking her explicitly if she'd like to come home with you, or if she's tired and wants to be dropped at home. If you make it clear enough that you'd like to have sex at your house, and then ask separately if she'd like to go to your house, you may be able to get a clear "yes" without triggering that person's shyness around explicitly talking about sex. In the moment, sometimes you can get more explicit consent from a shy person by offering choices. For example, "I've got a great bottle of wine if you'd like to drink it with me, or I would love to take you into the bedroom for a massage. What are you in the mood for?" One can also reaffirm consent in the moment by asking "Do you like this?" and saying things like "Tell me what you want, I want to know you're having a good time." If you can't get at least nonverbal consent for each step, like a nod or a smile or your partner taking his or her clothes off, it's time to back off.
Speaking as a woman, I have occasionally met people who needed and wanted to be coaxed this way (men too), and I think it's okay to work with them on that as long as they're willing to learn to negotiate explicitly (although perhaps not in the moment itself). Making getting consent flirtatious and sexy and making sure to offer your partner graceful outs if he or she isn't into what's happening can help make sure you have a willing partner, even if he or she is inhibited about talking about sex.
@Stephanie: as someone who currently has a partner who has responsive desire (or at least is expressing it that way - we're early enough in our relationship that I'm still figuring out how she communicates), it's also a challenge to be the more spontaneous partner. How to express that stopping at any time is okay, while balancing that with showing desire and being encouraging. Certainly worth doing; and this post and its comments are food for thought as she and I have those discussions about how we can communicate our desires with each other.
ReplyDelete"I heard that Rob and Josie--I'll totally kill you if you tell anyone--totally agreed to have sex at Jesse's party!"
ReplyDeleteSo maybe this is just me, but this statement would prompt me to ask: "Then what stopped them?" It's a good thought, but if you move the focus completely to consent and leave out actions entirely, it just ends up being confusing.
Maybe the "at Jesse's party" part is what stopped them.
DeleteThe size and social-authority advantages an adult has over kids shouldn't be used to force them to play games or accept hugs or go down the big slide.
ReplyDeleteThis. So much this. I hated Barbies as a kid. Mom would get me to half-heartedly "play" with them anyway. (Does, "put clothes on her so she can go off and Do Nothing Whatsoever in a different cutesy outfit" even count as playing?) Guess who still hates Barbies?
It's kinda weird, because I still love my old American Girl dolls, and love the idea of them having clothes for any situation--but I can't stand dolls like Barbie whose entire purpose seems to be clothing. Mom just made me hate them even more by trying to force me to like them.
@littlejadegirl: Making your child play with one toy instead of another is not necessary or important in any way. Arbitrarily choosing which flavor of ice cream to get them without considering their input isn't a good idea. You can teach politeness and responsibility without making nonvital decisions for your child. There's a huge difference between "well, Timmy, if you want to play with LEGOs instead of puzzles*, that's your choice" and "well, Timmy, if you don't want to do your homework, then I guess you don't have to." A gargantuan, jumbo-sized, tremendously huge difference.
ReplyDelete* I'm trying to pick unisex toys here, to avoid issues of gender conformity or nonconformity. I could care less if Timmy wants to play with Barbies, but that's beyond the scope of this comment.
@Holly: If it's my kid, and I know they've never eaten something before, I will encourage them to try it just once. But yeah, assuming that other people don't know what they do and don't like is insulting.
Another mom story: I have always found peppers, of all kinds, to taste astoundingly bitter. No one else seems to notice a bitter taste when they eat peppers, so I guess it's just me. Last night, I ate over at my parents' house. One of the side dishes was sweet peppers. Instead of strongarming me like she did when I was a kid, Mom said, "Why don't you see if you like these sweet peppers?" I was more than happy to say yes because she respected my autonomy. I still didn't like them, but being asked to do something is waaaay better than being forced. :)
@Ada: I think the ads are good too, except that they ignore the fact that women can also rape men or other women. Ignoring female rapists in anti-rape campaigns is NOT a good thing.
@Anon 3:27: You lost me at "evolutionary biology." The social conditioning paragraph is right on, but the one before it....NO. I do not ever want a guy to assume I've said yes when I haven't. EVER.
@Anon 3:54: Perhaps "decided" would work better in that case? After all, by listing booth name, you're implying that both parties agreed to the decision, and the word "decide" implies follow-through.
Before I got married, I made a big point of open communication about sex. She agreed. After we'd been married a while, she stopped initiating. When I talked to her about it, she refused to initiate ever because she felt that rejection was too painful when I was too tired or something. She felt that the culture makes rejection more painful for women than men, which I think is probably true. Then she started coming on to me, but turning disinterested whenever I asked.
ReplyDeleteLater, she left me to become the slave of a guy who doesn't ask.
I suppose this'll come off as sour grapes, but you know what? I hated that kind of relationship. I commit to marriage forever, so I desperately tried to convince myself I could be and was happy with that; but I was suicidally depressed, and I haven't been since I got over the initial shock of her leaving. Refusal to unequivocally express consent seems to be commonest in submissives, so I think people vaguely think it's humility. It's not. It takes an astronomical ego to think that your genitals are so special that everyone has to ask you and you never have to ask anyone; it's a way people put themselves on a pedestal at the expense of their partner. It did terrible things to my self-image over the years.
Now my big fear is that when I marry again, my next wife might do the same thing with talking about communication before and refusing it afterwards.
I don't mean to de-rail, but have you changed the layout recently? The comments seem to be in a different font and the lines are so close together that I find it VERY hard to read
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:27 - I feel like what you just said is "the only way to have sex with 75% of women is take your chances with raping them," and no. That is not okay. The whole "if you don't just drag women away to your cave, you'll never get laid" thing is basically rape culture. It's really not that common that women are turned off by consent, and if they are? Don't fuck 'em.
ReplyDeleteAlso, "evolutionary psychology" doesn't mean "sweeping statements made for no reason." Those are two different scientific fields.
Anon 5:32 - The comment thing isn't my fault. :( Blogger changed stuff and I'm hoping they'll fix it. The reply buttons also aren't working for me.
> It's really not that common that women are turned off by consent, and if they are? Don't fuck 'em.
DeleteI have some experience with more conservative parts of the country, and sorry, it actually is pretty common for women to be turned off by a perceived lack of confidence. It's not the asking for consent that does it, though -- it's the hesitancy and awkwardness that can come with it, especially if the woman is expecting the man to initiate with touch. I think the solution is to learn confident and flirty approaches to asking for consent, which I admit requires a much higher degree of social skill than bluntly asking or simply bumbling ahead without clear consent.
Men raised in conservative parts of the country often complain that if they're "nice," they don't get dates. What they don't realize is that it's not that their dates want to be abused, it's that they're looking for confidence, assertiveness, and a certain amount of social grace (in other words, the ability to avoid awkward moments). Men who appear to be nervous about initiating sex won't come off as attractive.
I live in a poly geek culture where asking explicitly for consent is the norm. Getting consent is often done in goofily blunt and direct ways. This works in this subculture, where dorky is sexy. It does not work on people who
are terrified of embarrassment and have very specific expectations about how "men" and "women" are supposed to behave around sex. Many conservative parts of the country are like this, and sadly, the provided script doesn't include saying, "I want to have sex with you. Wanna?" In order not to embarrass a date or repel him or her with your awkwardness and bad manners, you have to find ways to ask for consent that don't put the other person in the intensely embarrassing position of either verbally admitting that they're horny or having to turn you down. It's possible, but it's not easy.
Another strategy, of course, is to move to a major city and find a different dating pool. But that's not immediately possible for everyone.
Women help to perpetuate rape culture too. It's a shame, but there it is.
Generally, though, awesome post. Thanks.
I love that you broadened this to non-sexual things, particularly non-sexual touch. I really think it is important not to hug people, even children, without their consent. (Although I'm curious at what age that starts, and how to ask a two-year-old if they want to be picked up and understand the answer, but I don't have children and someone who does might have a better perspective on this.) But hugging is often done publicly, while sex is usually done privately, so a change of the norms around hugging would be a great way to change attitudes about consent.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's strange, I feel like someone's going to read this and say, don't you like hugs? What's the matter with you? And yes I do like hugs, but not at any time from anyone whether I want it or not.
At age 2, kids definitely understand what being picked up is! And they also understand how to say yes and no, though of course on a very basic level. In my experience, you could ask that question (or something similar) and get an intelligible one-word response. On the other hand, kids want very much to please the adults around them, so you could ask a question like "you want to be picked up, don't you?" and still get a yes, even if they don't necessarily actually want that. That sort of makes me wonder at what age kids realize that they possess autonomy; I'm guessing it's much later.
DeleteActive, enthusiastic consent (especially if you're taking things out of a bedroom context) as the only acceptable form of consent is too absolutist for my taste. Doesn't take apathetic inertia into consideration. How many opportunities for fun and boundary-expansion would be missed if the lowest common denominator of instant, exuberant acceptance was the only way to go?
ReplyDeleteAnd while it may be annoying to be pressured into trying new foods, I hardly think that's an affront to your human dignity (unless it's persistent and after you've made your position clear).
Anon - Enthusiasm doesn't mean "YAYYYYY!!!!" necessarily. It just means that the "yes" is meant, that there's desire behind it rather than just technically saying the word "yes." I'm not seeing a scenario in which unenthusiastic consent--that is, consent where someone has agreed but doesn't really want to--would lead to fun.
ReplyDeleteNo, it's not a Huge Deal to be pressured into trying new foods, but that's the point. We shouldn't reserve concern about consent for times when it's a Huge Deal. We should get practice doing it for small-stakes stuff.
Nonverbal communication counts alot
ReplyDeleteHow about this? "Let's go to Your Somewhat Nearby Amusement Park!" "Um, nah. That seems like a lot of driving." "Pleeeeeeease? x 10" "Ugh, fine!" Traffic turns out to be a breeze, rides and snow cones are fun and yummy. Special time had by all. Traffic hater turns out to not carry a hissy fit grudge all day, what with the fun, and a lesson about prioritization about short-term comfort vs quality time spent is learned.
ReplyDeleteAgreed on the getting into the practice with the food. One time asked 'want to try this?" 'No, thanks." "Cool" is good enough for me.
I think I'd rather the person who says no to things a lot learn the hard way that they end up missing out on things because they are not willing to accept initial short-term discomfort than because you pressured them into it.
DeleteYou are basically making an "ends justifies the means" argument here which is pretty disturbing to me.
Well... sort of.
DeleteI can really identify with Anon@7:25's comments.
I sort of describe myself as the "introverted life of the party". When I'm at home, I rarely want to go out. But once I get out, I often have a fantastic time. I now know myself well enough to realize this. So when a friend asks "Hey, lets go out to ", rather than just saying No I give a rather unenthusiastic "Yes" -- knowing that once I get there, my enthusiasm will pick up quite a bit.
Kermitt - Nonverbal communication counts a lot with people you know. It's easy to misread people you don't.
ReplyDeleteIt's also possible to impose a lot of wishful thinking onto nonverbal communication. If you want someone badly enough, you can read in things that aren't there.
So I'm a big believer in erring on the explicit side.
Anon - I'm not saying you're not allowed to try persuading anyone of anything ever. But "plllleeeease"ing someone 10 times actually sounds royally obnoxious. If they ended up having a good time, that's just good luck, not vindication of your methods.
If someone doesn't want to go to a party, try a new food, get up and dance, make small talk at the lunchtable--that's their right. Stop the "aww c'mon" and "just this once" and the games where you playfully force someone to play along.
ReplyDeleteOh man, seriously. I'm incredibly lucky to have the friends I do, and one part of why is that they know that if I'm not going out, it's because I don't fucking want to go out and the more you insist, the more I will loathe you.
I used to work with a guy who would not fucking stop inviting me out to things I'd already said I wasn't interested in a hundred fucking times. If I was still working there I'd have probably glassed him by now.
Wasn't an unpleasant person, but jesus, he was old enough to know that some people are not very sociable because we don't want to be, not because we need to be cajoled into everything like a goddamn puppy. Fortunately I am one of the ten or twelve most stubborn people in human history, so I never cave, but in 74% of alternative realities, I have killed people with a chair.
The hugging example extends quite neatly to nonverbal communication. Performed right, it's quite possible to do a nice explicit (NO NOT LIKE THAT) gesture that says "Do you wish hugs?" At this point, the other person can say "Not feeling like it, sorry" and all is fine (note "Performed right" at the start, which does include people understanding, and you knowing that people understand, that saying no is OK), or deploy hugs- not a word spoken, and plenty of consentiness.
ReplyDeleteThat's cool. I'd love to hear more about what you consider to be reliable-ish differences between pressure and persuasion. When does persistent persuasion efforts turn into pressure? What's considered giving up too easily versus respecting boundaries? Part of the issue I have with your idea is the vast gray middle doesn't go away by bringing up extreme-ish examples on the pressure side.
ReplyDeleteThere is a vast gray middle between pressure and persuasion, and I don't know that I can say much more about it except "be reasonable."
ReplyDeleteI think that middle is a lot less vast when it comes to sex, though. There's really not a lot of good arguments you can make to change someone's mind about whether they desire you or not.
I think a good starting point for noticing the difference between pressure and persuasion when it comes to sex is: does the other person look happy about it?
DeleteHey, I like the idea of a consent culture and the ways you describe are certainly a path towards it. However, I guess you focussed mainly on the "no" part and forgot a bit the "yes" part. Because I think consent culture does not only mean to ask what someone else might like or not - but also to tell what you like or not, also without being asked.
ReplyDeleteSo I tried to add some points I think are missing but I consider being very important. Feel free to add them to your post (also edited if you like, since I guess my English is not perfect :) ).
Tell if you want to touch somebody. If you feel an affection for somebody and wish to touch him, don't wait for the other person to ask you. Even if you may be afraid of rejection it's important to overcome that fear as it will make your life easier in many other parts.
When you want to have sex with someone, tell him or her. Tell as clear as you can. Don't be ambiguous (and force the other one to interpret). This may be hard in the beginning if you're socialized as a female since the corresponding role models in our culture demand passivity from women. However, exactly because of this it's important to break these models in order to extend women's freedom of expression.
If the other person becomes confused just explain what you want and why you like expressing your wishes openly. Be surprised how many people will appreciate that. If someone calls you a slut don't give a shit. Be happy you learned so quickly about his or her deep-down views.
And no, sending "obvious signals" is not telling.
Don't get offended by questions. This is the other side of the coin: If you want to encourage people to ask, you must be fine with hearing many questions, even questions you might consider being out of place in the beginning. Because the crux is: What might be completely out of place for you, might be normal for somebody else. Nobody can know that before. Appreciate that a culture of asking and telling enables you to learn quickly about people's views and desires.
Of course, it's not OK if you already expressed that you don't want to talk about something and someone is still pressing the issue.
I also have an adopted child who initially had to be forced a *lot* and who is going through such a phase again now. It is hard for me, as I believe strongly in consent. I made some bad parenting mistakes because I hoped for a healthy situation and that's just not where we started out.
ReplyDeleteOne thing (not an issue with my child as he's older, but in general) that I will recommend is avoiding picking out fiction for them that teaches badgering. Dr. Seuss' _Green Eggs and Ham_ leaps to mind. Gods, I hated that book as a kid. It's supposed to teach "be open to new things" but it really teaches "keep badgering and they will cave--and this is a good thing." In real life the narrator would not be grateful for the way he was treated, at least 99 times out of 100.
For older kids you can't pick their stories, but you can say, "I didn't like the way he kept pressuring her to do X" or "I would have been mad at her for the way she kept asking and asking."
The coaches who are trying to help with my kid also suggest that parents should not badger. Tell the kid what he needs to do, set the consequences for not doing it; then implement them if necessary. Don't nag. We are working on this and it does seem to help. In particular it changed the morning routine from 50 minutes of misery to a single "Did he get to school on time? No? Then he loses out on video games this afternoon."
The whole idea that asking over and over is a way to get results leads to a worse world than the alternative.
Holly's article focuses on the asker's point of view. I think an equally important article could be written about the askee's point of view: about the fact that if you, say, expect your partner to read your mind and get huffy when s/he doesn't, *you* are contributing to non-consent culture. And even if that's what turns you on, you need to own up to the results, just as someone who's turned on by forcing you needs to own up to it. There are ways to engineer consensual non-consent but it takes work. We none of us get to duck that work just because it's not always the most immediate fun.
(The tactic that works for me--I'm a sub--is to establish consent and then sort of break contact for a moment and start "clean" with the roleplaying scenario. This keeps the establishing consent from jarring with the flavor of the scenario.)
So glad to hear I wasn't the only one who always hated "Green Eggs and Ham".
DeleteI ***LOVE*** that you brought this up in this way, with this post, Holly.
ReplyDeleteBut after I say that I love the whole OP, I wanna riff on the comment you just made 30 min ago in a way that might sound a bit like disagreement (really it's an expansion where I think we will probably agree)...
No, there aren't a lot of good arguments one can make to change someone's mind about whether they desire YOU or not. However, that doesn't make it a special case on the pressure-persuasion scale.
Persuasion isn't about changing what people want, it's about getting people to see a current question or option differently so that a person might realize that it does fall into what they want after all. "Do you wanna fuck this morning honey?" "No, I don't have time, I would be late for work." "Well, sure you would be if we do our normal routine, but if you want a quickie & if I make breakfast for both of us, you have plenty of time." "But you never make breakfast for me!" "Well, yeah, but I really want your hot steamy body this morning, so it's more than worth it."
Here the question isn't reframed from, "Do you want me?" to "Do you want me now?" It's reframed from, "Do you wanna do something that makes you late for work and thus have problems with your boss, but would be fun and enjoyable and add to our growing closeness?" to "Do you wanna do something fun & enjoyable with no negative job consequences?"
I think of 3 categories - persuasion does things like the above: tries to show how something fits into existing desires even though up til now someone thought that very same thing didn't fit into existing desires.
Bribery tries to get at situations where a person might be willing to choose a package deal A+B when they would never choose A alone. If they would never choose A alone and would also never choose A+B if they could get B alone, this is bad bribery. This might take the form, "Wanna go down on me?" "No." "How about you go down on me and I hire you for this job?" Okay, extreme example, but I wanted to make clear a time when someone is using an unconnected good thing to try to change the answer to a question about sex.
cont in part 2
part 2:
ReplyDeleteIf, however, you can't get B alone (it might come in other package deals like B+C, but never just B) or if A isn't repulsive, it's just not *desired*, then this is not particularly bad bribery. It might take the form of, "Wanna go down on me?" "No." "What if we did 69?" Or...it might take the form of, "Can I go down on you?" "No, I always feel weird when someone goes down on me and you never do it for long so it seems like you get what you want, since you enjoy it so much, but I don't get anything out of it except feeling nervous and weird." "What if I promise to keep going until you have an orgasm - you can totally even touch yourself while I'm down there if that helps?"
This is a form of bribery, but I think many people would also consider it healthy negotiation.
Then there's pressure. Pressure doesn't offer anything positive as an inducement. Pressure also tries to change the answer and not the question. Where persuasion tried to change the question from, "Do you want X if it comes with bad thing Y?" to "Do you want X if it doesn't come with bad thing Y?" it is clearly assuming that you **do** desire X, but just not under the current circumstances. Pressure is used when someone does NOT desire X (in sex this could be a person or an activity), and not only lacks desire to do something/one but also has a desire to AVOID doing something/one. Otherwise you could simply offer it as a package (X + orgasm or X + whatever) in a form of bribery. Pressure creates unpleasantness that can only be removed by "consenting" to X. Saying, "Please" x10 is annoying. Obviously if the person gives in, the annoyance stops. This is a mild unpleasantness and thus could be seen as a mild form of pressure. Threatening to explode a thermonuclear bomb in the home city of the family of the person you are pressuring (if the threat is credible) is about the maximum unpleasantness I could imagine and thus is about the worst form of pressure with which my brain can come up.
But in the whole range of "pressure" you are trying to, in your words Holly, "change someone's mind about whether they desire you or not," where with bribery and/or persuasion, you aren't.
Does this way of conceptualizing things make it easier to see what might be more acceptable and what might be less acceptable and why?
One of the things I've appreciated about the nurse practitioner at my doctor's office is she always asks before she feels my lymph nodes or what-have-you. It's a very refreshing change of pace, since I tend to assume the moment I walk into a doctor's office that I get no choice in how I'm touched, when, or where. I also appreciate that most of my friends will ask if I want a hug or something--though sometimes they move so fast that we only barely manage to switch to someone hug-happy in time. (Hugging for me is unpleasant, unless it's one of my system members, my husband, or a very close friend. HATE surprise hugs.)
ReplyDeleteI've found that it took me a lot of work to be able to say 'yes,' because due to my history, I literally did not know what yes felt like. I would avoid saying 'yes' whenever possible because I was used to a toxic situation where if I said yes to X, then I was required to follow through on Y, Z, and Z'. As long as I clung to my no, it was respected, but say yes, and I was totally fucked, and not in the happy consensual way. How could I respect my own boundaries, never mind enforce them, when I had no concept of what they were?
These days, I've gotten better, partly due to my husband checking in a whole lot. (He's not afraid to say, "Even though you said yes, I'm uncomfortable with this current situation," and back off. My reaction is usually a pretty good indication of how enthusiastic I am--if I completely freak out and burst into tears, sex is a very bad idea.)
--Rogan
I'd LOVE to post this or part of it with credit on consentculture.com! Would that be ok?
ReplyDeleteKitty - Absolutely!
ReplyDeleteHolly, I would like to thank you. Basically all my life, I'd assumed that my broiling resentment at culture's many and varied (and cherished) expressions of sexual coercion were just a result of my not understanding how the men-women thing works (during childhood) or having some sort of mental quasi-disability that leaves me unable to become aroused by the mere sight of someone fit (during adulthood). All it took was one little tangential comment about Baby, It's Cold Outside, and I'm beginning to see that it might be that I've intuitively understood principles of consent from very early on. Perhaps that's being a little over-charitable towards myself, but it lets me stop feeling like an asshole when something like that comes up, which is basically all the time.
ReplyDeleteCrip Dyke - Thanks for your comment. It's a lot more coherent about the difference between "persuasion" and "pressure" than I was.
ReplyDeleteHolly - thanks for the post! I really liked it.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on the kids issue. I don't have kids myself, but if I ever will, there's a very clear line between raising your child and controlling them that I'd like to stay on the right side of. It's important to remember that when we do tell our kids to do stuff, it's so they can learn to be independent people who don't have to be told what to do. Growing up, I experienced lots of controlling from my folks, who thankfully weren't physically abusive, but growing up that way still messed me up a good amount, and it took me years to get over. Even now, the thought of visiting my family makes me uneasy.
I like this post. I like that you mention non-sexual consent; I really hate being hugged, or touched in general; I have some weird food-related aversions myself, and I find it absolutely infuriating to be nagged into doing something 'for fun' that I didn't want to do in the first place.
ReplyDeleteI think there is a significant amount of gray area between 'let your kids get away with everything' and 'ignore their agency'. Kids shouldn't be tickled or hugged or generally touched in a way they don't want to be touched--the only exceptions here are medical or safety-related, imo. The tickling thing really gets to me; I have an uncle who always like to tickle me mercilessly when I was a kid. I hated it--HATED IT--I used to scream and cry and flail, so I think I was expressing myself pretty clearly. I'm 26, and I still flinch whenever this guy comes near me.
Kids should be expected and required to honor their commitments and responsibilities, but I think they should also have some choice about what commitments they have in the first place. Making a kid practice his piano exercises and attend the recital is fine, as long as he wanted to learn to play the piano in the first place. Making a kid finish her homework is fine, but regulating what she does for fun is shitty and generally pointless unless what she wants to do is destructive or dangerous.
I like this post a lot. As various others have mentioned, it's great that you're expanding consent culture beyond sexual matters. Gives me good stuff to think about.
ReplyDeleteAlso, thank you Crip Dyke for this great differentiation between persuasion (reframing a question), bribery and pressure.
Pressure creates unpleasantness that can only be removed by "consenting" to X.
As you've already put "consenting" into quotation marks here, to show that it is not really consenting, I think I'd personally use the phrase like this: Pressure creates unpleasantness that can only be removed by giving in to X.
'You can do this with fictional stories, too.'
As someone who enjoys nonconsensual fiction, I'm very much in favour of clearly tagging nonconsensual stories as 'nonconsensual'. I think it contributes to consent culture to use an unequivocal story code, and to refrain from softening a story code 'nonconsensual' to an euphemistic 'reluctant' or 'dubious consent', if a story contains a situation in which a character does not find themselves in a position to freely say 'No'.
By contrast, I also love explicit consent and explicit negotiation shown in consensual fiction. As in the Kirk/Spock example. :)
Back to reality:
'2. When someone doesn't want to have sex with you and so you don't, talk about it. Share that you're bummed but also that you take pride in your ability to take it gracefully.'
Holly, could you perhaps give an example or two of this? I don't think I'm getting what you mean here. For example, does 'someone' refer to an existing partner, or does it refer to seeking casual hook-ups? Either? Talk about it – with whom? Talk about it – when? Right away? Later?
At this moment, my mind is coming up with pretty much the most awful kind of example:
Stranger X sexually propositions stranger Y. Stranger Y: 'No'. Stranger X: 'I'm really feeling bummed about your rejection. Explain why not?!?!'
... and I am sure that's not the sort of 'talk about it' you mean.
I'm not planning on having kids, but I do have younger brothers. My father has a bit skewed ideas of what a child can and cannot refuse - that is, if we don't want to hug or kiss him, he will either force us if he can, or make us feel guilty about not doing it. I'm old enough now that I can say no and then remove myself from the situation if I can't take the emotional blackmail, but none of my brothers is. So I've been trying very hard to teach them that saying no is fine and you shouldn't feel guilty about it, and also that if somebody else says no, trying to pressure them into doing it anyway is absolutely not ok. I'm having a lot of trouble getting this into the youngest one's head, though. He loves hugs, and he will pout and nag whenever I don't want to hug him, and will sometimes hug me anyway. I don't always know how to respond, because he's 11 and I don't want to be too harsh, but I also don't want to give the impression that it's ever ok.
ReplyDeleteDo you have any advice on how to teach my brother that consent is important, especially since he's also getting the totally opposite information at the same time? Preferably in a way that doesn't make my father rage at me?
Ranai - Whoops, ambiguous language. I meant talk about it with other people. If you have friends that you share your sexual conquests with, share your sexual non-conquests too.
ReplyDelete"I was with this guy and I totally thought we were going to do it but he said 'no,' and you know, that sucks but it's life. At least after he said that we had a good talk and left on good terms."
Ah, thank you! That clears it up. :)
ReplyDeleteI like this concept too. In case someone likes to tell friends about occasions when good times were had, also mention occasions when another person said 'No' and the world didn't end.
This is an excellent post, and I particularly like that you addressed the rights of children to consent, or withdraw consent.
ReplyDeleteI was reading an article recently on educating children about consent early, and encouraging them to say no. It was a good article, except it mentioned that this might lead to "awkward" moments where the children refuse hugs or kisses from relatives, and how you should teach your children why this is necessary and different.
Owing your family consent violating privileges because they'll feel sad seems on a continuum of "Well, you know, he did buy me dinner and he's been really nice, I do kind of owe him sex", as well as being difficult for children to negotiate - how can they be expected to differentiate when they have to tolerate uncomfortable touching from Uncle Fred, and when they're allowed to say no?
Thanks for this. I would love to have been raised with the right to refuse nonsexual touch. It would have been helpful ammunition for refusing sexual touch farther down the line.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this post.
ReplyDeleteBecause you're now an advice columnist for the whole Internet and so anybody on it can monopolise your time whenever they wish... joking aside, because there are probably few better people to ask... I've got a question about negotiation and consent.
I have a partner who rarely explicitly consents to anything, sexual or nonsexual. 'OK' (neutral tone) is not a useful answer to 'Would you like a coffee?' but it's what I'm getting unless I push hard for a better one.
I think we both agree that this is at least partially the result of childhood abuse - as far as I understand it, they grew up learning to ignore every want and need, because no-one would pay any attention anyway.
This is obviously particularly worrying when it comes to sex. They say they often genuinely don't know whether they are in the mood or not, and if so, for what - they're so used to ignoring everything they want they have no idea what it is.
I do end up saying 'Shall we try doing something sexual, and stop if you want?' (or something equally stilted, but one of us has got to use our words in this relationship...) and behaving accordingly. They are, at least, able to say no, though it took me ages to be satisfied that they always do when they want.
The sex itself is really good, for both of us. I can tell they're having a good time. But... I feel really skeevy always being the one to initiate it. Sometimes I remember that my partner doesn't always eat or sleep unless someone points out it might be pleasant for them, because they don't notice they're hungry or tired, and think I'm being silly, but I think maybe the rules should be different in this situation... I just don't know. If you had any ideas at all, I'd appreciate it.
(Yes, I know the first answer is 'get them to go to therapy...' I'm working on it :-) )
I've been in the situation of your partner, and can empathize with your concern. Since I'm in a pretty singular *rimshot* situation, unfortunately, a lot of what allowed us to make it work isn't possible for you.
DeleteI actually have a book recommendation! It's called "Healing Sex," and it's by Stacy Haines, I think. It's pretty much ABOUT trying to figure out what it feels like when you want something, and being able to recognize your own boundaries and consent. It does have the drawback of assuming the survivor is a girl, but at least it doesn't assume the abuser is a guy, and it has a lot of really useful, down-to-earth pragmatic advice. Too bad I discovered it just about when I'd finally figured it out myself; would've saved me a lot of time.
--Rogan
Various scattered thoughts...
ReplyDelete(1) I think one problem with getting consent from kids is the fact that very young children (or indeed, less young children if special needs are involved) don't have the language necessary to communicate consent, or aren't capable of understanding a situation enough to give informed consent (for example: small child sees vaccination only as a nasty hurty thing - and it occurs to me that this idea of "too young to give informed consent" is part of the reason why age of consent laws exist for sex). By the time a child is old enough to give consent to things in a way that can be understood by others, the parents are used to making decisions for the child out of necessity. It can be hard to identify the point at which making decisions for your child starts to be a less than awesome idea, and difficult to remind yourself that what used to be a necessity is now a bad habit. This doesn't make it okay to ignore the consent of kids, but I think it's part of the reason that kids' consent often gets overlooked.
(2) General social consent seems all well and good, but I don't think you can apply it as broadly as "if a person doesn't want to do x social thing, then they shouldn't", because social actions affect more than one person. If I don't particularly want to go to a friend's party, but having to go wouldn't be a Terrible Thing and would make my friend happy, I'm likely to go anyway because I care about my friend's happiness. If I don't want to keep a promise I made to someone, I'll still try and keep it, because it sucks when people break promises they made to you. If I don't want to apologise to someone I've wronged, I probably ought to suck it up and apologise anyway, because I'd want to receive an apology if the roles were reversed. And to touch on point (1) again, I'd encourage my kid brother to do the same - not because I want to strip him of his ability to consent, but because I think that practicing empathy is a pretty important part of life, and if he or I are going to make a decision that affects other people, we ought to consider the perspectives of said other people.
(3) Seriously, you are so very right that asking before touching doesn't tend to kill the mood. The sexiest pick-up line I've ever received was "do you mind if I kiss you?" (It actually took me several months to realise that the asker probably hadn't intended it as a mere pick-up line, and had asked because she actually cared about getting my consent. If I'd realised at the time that this was why she was asking, it would have been even sexier)
Hello!
ReplyDeleteI've been feeling kinda crappy today and I felt like I needed to read what other people had to say about the matter... while searching the web, I found your blog. And I'm glad I did.
Around 3 years and a half ago, when I was 18, I was going through a rough time. Me and my boyfriend were not getting along well and broke up for several periods of time. I had a friend, a guy friend, who was not very close to me, but was a childhood friend of most of my girl friends. He was younger than me (17 years old)... He was a very fun guy and he made me feel good about myself. I was feeling insecure and I developed a crush on him.
A few time passed and we went on a trip together with a bunch of other friends. One night, we were left alone and some jokes and tickles lead to making out. I wanted it... but I didn't want to have sex with him.
He procedeed to take my clothes off and I absolutely froze. He was on top of me and I asked him to stop. His response was "not now". I made the same request several times and I got the same answer, I tried to push him, but he kept going. I did not scream, I did not fight, I just stood there. I was numb until I felt him inside of me and the pain finally made me scream. Finally, he stopped (there were people nearby).
Aside from that, he was never agressive towards me. He was a minor. I made out with him because I wanted to and I was alone with out of my own free will. I blamed myself and sometimes I still do, but I know I did not wanted that and that I did not consent it. And he decided not to care and to strip me of my control.
I am very sorry this happened to you. What he did was very clearly wrong and stripping you of your autonomy. In no way were you at fault.
DeleteHave you talked to a therapist about this? It can be extremely helpful working through these weird-ass feelings. And just know that there is tons of support and things and stuff and people for you to talk to if you'd like.
Thank you for your reply :)
DeleteI did not talk to a therapist. At the time I refused to, I just wanted to forget. Now I realize it is not something you just forget. I usually cope well with it (thankfully I have a very supportive boyfriend), but sometimes it breaks me down. I have serious anxiety problems, which are not totally related to this, but surely have a lot to do with it. I'm thinking about going to a therapist soon.
I'm glad there's people that understand me (have they been through something similar or not)... unfortunately I don't have very helpful friends. They just don't seem to understand what that meant to me.
A few days ago I saw him. We took the same airplane. I was with my boyfriend and he never looked directly at us. Later, on the airport, I was alone and we crossed ways. He just stared with an expression that even before anything had happen used to startle me (that kind of look like someone is able to dive deep into your soul). It probably sounds like something minor. It probably is. But for some reason, that stare always scares the hell out of me...
I absolutely get why just a stare can disturb you. Some people, for whatever reason, have disturbing "auras." And if he didn't even look at you while you were with your boyfriend and then stared at you alone it seems pretty clear to me that he was trying to intimidate you. It's ok for that to scare you! He's clearly a scary person who does bad things.
DeleteAnd this is totally the kind of thing you never forget. It dosen't make you weak to need help to work through them. I would strongly recommend a therapist. They can be so helpful in helping you feel whole and happy. Though sometimes it can take a long time to find the right one. If the first one dosen't work don't be afraid to keep looking!
If you think it'd be helpful to talk to another sexual abuse survivor, and a veteran of a great many therapists, feel free to get in touch with me on gchat. SilentNinjaDesu@gmail.com
Yes. Yes, yes, yes! Thank you for this post. This is such an important topic, something which needs to be brought up way more often just to get more people talking and thinking about what consent actually means. I really love that you placed importance on the not-usually-discussed issue of consent in nonsexual situations (including my own personal bugbear, hugging without permission) as well as on the crucial issue of consent regarding sex. I love it when my friends say "can I hug you?" It makes me feel loved, respected, and safe, which are feelings everyone has a right to but not everyone gets. And that extends to so very many facets of life - "would you like a cookie?" is a lot nicer than "here, eat this now," just as being asked "I'd really like to kiss you, would you enjoy that?" is waaay nicer than not being offered a chance to say "please don't do that" or the really pleasant opportunity of saying, "yes, please, I'd love you to!"
ReplyDeleteI also agree that the rights of children to say yes or no need to be more carefully considered. It's certainly a difficult and kind of hazy problem, especially with kids young enough to not understand why they need to brush their teeth or take a bath. And it is important for kids to learn that they can't always get their way when it comes to things like (not) doing homework. But. It's also vitally important for everyone, even if they're still learning to talk, to learn how and why to express their preferences in constructive ways. If your six-year-old child grows up with constant reminders (and examples of the fact) that it's okay to say "yes please, I like playing tea parties with you" and just as okay to say "no thank you, I really want to finish my book," maybe when they're sixteen and being *pressured* to have sex, or smoke things, or bully the uncool/weird/LGBTQ kids, they'll stand a better chance of being able to say "no, I don't want to do that." And wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?
A culture where people wouldn't fucking tickle me would be pretty welcome. I _HATE_ being tickled. Nor do I like snowballs to the head, 'facewashes', wet willies, raspberries (the tickly kind, I love berries), noogies or other 'ha-ha, FUNNY' forms of basically invading my space and hurt/embarassing/squicking me out.
ReplyDeleteBut I SERIOUSLY hate being tickled, and I'm always the bad guy for making a big deal over it.
So, I have a very serious question about the nuances of consent culture.
ReplyDeleteI have a very good friend who I have known since we are 12 and who I love very much, and lately she has become an absolute shut-in. I think she's depressed and has some form of social anxiety, I have told her this, and I have told her she really should go to a doctor, but she won't go. Of course I can't make her, and I am very worried about her. (She has no job, I am her only friend. She never gos out with anyone bedsides me or her boyfriend. She refuses to meet my friends.)
So, periodically, I will call her up, or ever less frequently, she will call me and I will tell her that we will be getting dinner, or watching a movie, or something together. She will always have some excuse, but I will tell her they are bad ones and inform her that she really must come outside of her house. Eventually she will agree. (Unless, of course she actually does have a good excuse, in which case I try again later.) She always seems to have a good times, and she has thanked me for making her get out a few times.
If I did not do this I would have to end the friendship, because she won't have me over to her house. (I am actually afraid that her mother is abusive. But I don't know what to do about that. She won't say a bad word about her mother.)
So. Am I helping a friend? Or am I being condescending and deciding what's best for her against her will?
I truly think you are helping her.
DeleteA depressed person needs support, but many times they are not able to actively seek it. I think she's lucky to have someone to care has much as you... a lot of people don't.
Maybe it is not enough to get her out of her depression, but it sure looks like a start point...
Sarah, I struggle with a similar situation with someone I care very much about. My friend, too, always makes plans with me and then *always* has a really legitimate-sounding excuse why they have to bail.
DeleteIt's a double-edged sword whenever they do, because then I'm in a situation where either a) I can accept what my friend says at face value but knowing this means I will never get to spend time with them and also that they probably do, on some level, actually want me to come over OR b) I can ignore their excuse and decide to show up anyway, which is admittedly pretty patronizing and also implies that I think my friend is crazy.
I've struggled with this for several years, because consent is important to me and yet this is also someone I REALLY care about maintaining a relationship with, and I don't have any perfect solutions. But here are some things that have worked for me so far:
1. Make it about me, not my friend. I'm bugging them to hang out with me because *I* really want to spend time with them, not because I think it would be good for them to spend time with me. (Which is true.) This grants me the autonomy to actively pursue hang-out time but doesn't make assumptions about them or what's going on for them.
2. Take them at their word but be creative. So, for example, if we make plans to hang out and then they say they're too busy doing homework, I might say, "Okay, I totally understand. I'll just swing by for a minute to drop this book off and get out of your hair." That way, I can respect their boundaries while still creating space for them to invite me in if, when I show up, it happens that they're feeling more up to socializing than they were when we talked on the phone. (They sometimes are.)
3. Agree to backup plans in advance. Things may be different with your friend, but my friend knows that they have some form of social anxiety and is aware of their own patterns - and they are times when they are more or less able/willing to talk about them explicitly. So, for example, a conversation (over txt) might go like this:
DeleteME: Hey, do you want to hang out tomorrow?
FRIEND: Yeah! What time?
ME: How 'bout I come by your house at 7.
FRIEND: Sure.
FRIEND: Call before you come over, tho, ok?
ME: Absolutely.
Me: Um. So, what should I do if I call and you don't answer? Or say you've changed your mind?
FRIEND: You should come over anyway. I'll leave the door unlocked.
Now, granted, this is easier said than done. This kind of thing is difficult to talk about and it's taken us a long time to work up to this level of trust. And it still feels REALLY intense to, for example, show up at the house of someone who's just told me not to come over, based on the fact that a prior version of them told me to ignore what the later version of them said. This is a *very* grey area of consent - it's essentially a "consensual non-consent" type agreement outside of a sexual situation. It never feels easy to determine which "version" of my friend's consent is the one that counts - and I just kind of have to do the best I can, and sometimes I'm sure I've made the wrong decision.
4. Most importantly, make it clear to your friend that you respect her needs and boundaries and care about her enough to do the work required to put your money where your mouth is. I feel like one of the more important exchanges I've ever had with my friend (at least, it was important to me) was the one in which I told them, "I will continue to love you and consider you a friend and an important part of my life regardless of whether we never see each other in person again." And I meant it. And I think I've actually seen them in person *more* than I would've otherwise *because* I meant it.
But let me also say this: I've only gotten to hang out with this friend two or three times in person in the last several years - and we live in the same town. So, it's not like these are magic keys. Having a consensual and respectful relationship with someone who is working with complicated boundary stuff (for whatever reason - mental health, past traumas, etc) takes a lot of consciousness, self-awareness and work on your part. Some relationships are worth it. Some aren't.
@Sarah: As a depressed person (but only from my point of view, of course I can't speak for anyone else) I'd say you are probably doing the right thing. Depression very often comes with a low self-esteem and I, at least, often think that no one really wants to spend time with me and they just invite me along because they want to be polite or are feeling sorry for me. So it takes either years of building trust that the person actually likes me or a little bit of persuation from the person (or sometimes both) for me to accept that they do want to spend time with me.
DeleteIf you want to feel more sure that your friend isn't being pressured, you could perhaps offer her choices on what to do? I understand that it might also be very difficult for a depressed or socially anxious person to tell their opinion, but it is even more worth it if you can get her to say something. For example say that you really want to spend some time with them this week, would now or later be better for them. Or that you'd like to spend time with them (as agreed) but are not sure if it'd be better to go to a restaurant or to see a movie, and if they have any opinions?
@Sarah: I agree with anon 9:41 - I am exactly that kind of person, and it's incredibly hard for me to make myself leave the house or socialize with anyone at all.
DeleteIt's the difference between convincing and pressuring, which is really a judgement call when it comes down to it--if you're making her enjoyment and comfort a priority instead of just trying to get her to go along with whatever you want to do, I think you're ok.
...I'm possibly not explaining this well, idk.
Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses!
DeleteSo, yeah. I'm pretty sure I'm doing the right thing here, but how do we generalize these kinds of situations to broader rules for governing a consent culture?
Is it ok because we're such close friends? Because she's engaging in self-destructive activities? (Isolation is self-destructive...)
Clearly, I am acting in what I think is her best interest. But I could just as easily try to force her to eat more vegetables in what I think is her best interest. So... I guess there's this huge grey area? How can we resolve that?
Sarah: I had similar thoughts when I read this post. I have a friend who is (not severely, but noticeably) depressed, and probably also anxious in social settings. If I just ask her the once if she'd like to do XYZ, the answer is almost always no (and even when it's a yes, that yes is likely to be rescinded when it reaches the time she has to actually leave the building). It seems to mostly be anxiety about whether she's really wanted, but I think she also feels generally tired and lethargic.
DeleteI find if I'm a bit insistent, don't take the initial no as final, and inject some energy and enthusiasm into the situation, she does tend to warm to the idea, come along, and really enjoy herself. But I hate trying to persuade people when they've already given me a perfectly clear 'no', so I tend not to do that. But then if I don't then she gets a case of the sadfaises about how she spends every evening alone with her microwaveable meals, plus we'll both have missed out on an enjoyable time. I really don't know what to do about it. I don't think she's doing it to fish for compliments or reassurance, I think she just genuinely takes some time and persuasion before she can accommodate the suggestion. It's hard though. I don't want to be pushy and I'm not entirely clear on where the line is.
Holly, this is a great post. Also, I'm going to write a mean email to blogger about the comment line spacing... it's truly godawful!!! and I miss being able to read all the comments!
ReplyDeleteI think a consent culture would have to include some kind of different narrative about marriage. I happened to read your post at the same time as this advice column, question two - and there's nothing special about that, it's just an example of the prevailing theory that if you're married you have to have sex you don't want. In fact right now (if any of your readers other than me are old enough to be dealing with these issues) someone is probably composing a post about how gritting your teeth and suffering through it as a generous gift to your spouse is *totally different* than feeling pressured by an acquaintance or casual partner.
ReplyDeleteTo me it seems strange that loving someone for 38 years (as in that advice-column letter) would express itself into wanting them to regularly fake it for you - is pussy really that much better than the real person inside that body?
I am not 38 years into my marriage (just a small fraction of that) but I worry all the time that I will inevitably be divorced because I'm not interested in sex and really, really suck at forcing myself into it anyways (look, it just feels really bizarre and unpleasant to me to try to fake it when at all other times we have an easy, loving, straightforward relationship). I want to imagine that in a consent culture, there would be some kind of other narrative in which it's possible to sustain a marriage based on mutual support, joy, admiration, and companionship without the faking-it.
(To clarify: I DO NOT feel this pressure from my spouse, who pretty much never makes me feel worse about this stuff and often makes me feel better, I feel it from the wider culture and the zillion messages I run into about how of course you must "prioritize intimacy" in your marriage (that is, put out regularly) or you totally deserve to have it fall apart. Also, I am totally down with polyamory/"open marriage" and would be delighted if my spouse found someone fun and sexy to play with, because I really do think it would be great if he got to have all the different kinds of fun... just with someone who would also be having fun. But of course our culture tells me I can't "outsource" sex and still keep the rest of the marriage.)
Yeah, I've been there. For me, it was mostly about feeling not in control and that being a huge turnoff--I did have a libido under all the unpleasant feelings. But this kind of cultural pressure really did not help. Even if it weren't horrible in myriad other ways, it is a huge bonerkill.
DeleteIf you and your spouse are having intelligent, honest, loving conversations about sex (which it totally sounds like you are) then I give good odds on you remaining happily married for a long time.
Great post. Yeah, one problem I have with the "consent is sexy" slogan is that it limits the concept of "consent" to relationships where sex (or at least kissing and so forth) is a reasonable possibility, which leaves out all the many, many other contexts where consent should be practiced (most notably the boundaries that need to be in place between people who SHOULD NOT be having sex with each other, such as teachers and students). In addition, "consent is sexy" is irrelevant in the context of someone specifically *trying* to push you around non-consensually.
ReplyDeleteSome comments of mine have probably been lost in the new layout, so I'll repeat the gist here:
ReplyDeleteThe "problem" with consent culture (more accurately, the problem implementing it) is that the reward structures need to be completely redone. It's not something that "society" (read: everybody else) needs to do. It's individuals needing to make sure that they reward behavior in line with the new ideal, rather than taking advantage of how the status quo is easier/immediately advantageous to them. Kim above commented on things that individuals need to do to make sure that consent-forwards individuals don't feel punished. A companion piece on how to encourage consent-forwardsism would be interesting.
(I have to admit this is more of a bugaboo when it comes to sex-positivism than consent-forwardism. But then, I enjoy watching how peoples actions are a whole 180 from their stated positions.)
While I really like and agree with the gist of the post, one of my pet peeves is actually the word 'consent' being used like this. I feel that 'consent' still implies a one-sidedness, and that to put 'consent' on the good end of a line where 'rape' is the bad end is not really as healthy as we could be.
ReplyDeleteWhen I hear all those "get consent" campaigns, what I picture is this:
A: "May I have sex with you?"
B: "OK."
Or, more optimistically:
A: "May I have sex with you?"
B: "Yes!"
But even the latter is one-sided. I think what we should be aiming for is this:
A: "I want to have sex with you"
B: "I want to have sex with you"
...which would be called what? A "want culture" maybe? Something like that.
...
...
ReplyDeleteNow I understand that there are cases where expecting that level of initiation from both parties wouldn't work, but I still think that our laws, etc. concerning sex would be better served by the phrase "mutually desired" in place of "consensual" -- since even in the case of a sub who never initiates and never wants to, I think "I desire what is happening" would tend to be more accurate than "I consent to what is happening".
~Felix.
I don't know. There are reasons someone might consent to sex besides desire, and it is my right to consent to sex for any old reason, good or bad.
Delete--Elias Hiebert
Yes, but a bad reason to consent might be "I'll get hit/murdered/abused/fired if I don't."
DeleteThat's the problem with the whole "yes means yes! consent is sexy!" thing. Instead of being assaulted people get forced into agreeing to sex.
Well, yes, but that argument doesn't *quite* hold water in this particular argument. Should culture advance to the theorised point where saying no is totally fine, you /wouldn't/ be getting hit/murdered/etc.
DeleteA "yes" given under coercion is not in any way the same thing as one freely given. Such a fear is a form of coercion, and if the initiating partner is /actually/ doing enthusiastic consent type things, that sort of implied threat shouldn't be there.
So glad to see a post like this. Ignorant men need to realize that just because a woman hangs out with you or is in a room with you (which they could be doing out of boredom) doesn't mean they want sex or want you to try charging into them like some passionate movie sex scene. Great post!
ReplyDeleteHolly, thank you for talking about this.
ReplyDeleteCrip Dyke, thank you, especially, for clarifying what persuasion is and isn't.
I'm seriously uncomfortable with persuasion. I've always conceptualized it exactly as "changing what someone wants", and known that some people are just good at this (naturally or as a learned skill, it doesn't matter), and that those people must be feared and hated, because once they get their hooks into me, there's no escape. I will want whatever they want, and that's it. The only defense is to stuff wax in my ears and tie myself to the mast.
Understanding persuasion as "presenting a choice so that I can see how it might line up with what I already want" makes it a little less threatening. That's basically a factual claim--not an easy one to evaluate, because I don't always know what I want, and people do sometimes argue dishonestly, but that's what critical thinking is for, right? The insight that clicked for me in your post was that being persuaded doesn't deny my agency, and inversely, refusing to be persuaded doesn't affirm my agency. This is huge. I will have to ponder it further.
I agree with the part of SexyGirl's comment about movie sex scenes- I recently had an experience where I was talking to a friend- who I had known for a long time had feelings for me which I didn't return- and he wanted to know if there was any chance he and I could work, and I was having to let him down gently, and things seemed to be going well when suddenly he swooped in and tried to give me a kiss. Getting to the part where this relates to the original post, I would like to live in a culture where NO ONE thinks it is a good idea to suddenly swoop in and passionately kiss someone. Having someone invade your personal space like that can be a huge shock. No only that, but I didn't want a kiss from him, and I didn't really want a kiss right then from anyone because I was feeling all gross with a cold. But even if I had wanted a kiss from him, I wouldn't have wanted it suddenly ambushed on me like that. Asking, whether I was going to say yes or no, would have been really, really appreciated. This guy would probably have taken a no just fine, too, it's not like he was trying to jump a kiss on me because he thought he'd never get one otherwise. He just thought that this was the way things were done because that's how they always do it in films. That was what he said when I asked him what the hell he was doing, anyway. (He has Asberger's and doesn't have much experience with relationships.)
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, I'm sure I've seen scenes in films where a girl says she doesn't want a kiss from the guy but he just goes ahead and gives her one anyway and she ends up loving it. That has...worrying implications. (I'm sure this situation happens in real life with any combination of genders, but let's face it, in films it's most likely to be in this way)
Fantastic post. I think working on consent out of the bedroom is part of the key to avoiding it in the bedroom too. The current culture of 'don't care how I want it now' in our society in relation to a whole host of things is a massive problem.
ReplyDeleteI've just started a feminist-y/gender-type blog and this post has definitely provided a standard for which I can aim for. Thank you!
SexyGirl/Anon 10:56: Have either of you ever made the first move on a guy? Been the one to make all the date plans? Been the one to say "I really want to kiss you right now"? Until you make a regular habit of it, it shouldn't be that surprising when the gender who is constantly told that they always have to take the initiative winds up taking that to heart.
ReplyDelete(This is part of why I love bi chicks. The things Empowered Feminist Women do when they find out that dating a girl is nothing like dating a boy are amusing. Especially when compared to the rules she explicitly insists that boys follow.)
To repeat what I said above, you don't get your sex-positive happyland without having to move outside of your own comfort zone as well. A lot of things denounced as privilege/oppression/sexism are in fact symptoms of much deeper social trends. If you want to be rid of the parts you don't like, you also have to give up the parts that benefit you. Otherwise, the whole thing is slapdash and doomed to failure.
"Bi chicks" + "Women only want feminism where it benefits them!" = I am not even listening.
DeleteI'll take that as a no, then.
DeleteAiaiai. Way to be condescending and make assumptions about how we mate and date.
DeleteHey. I make the first move! A lot! (It scares a lot of boys off. I would probably do better if I were more passive. Oh well!) I still get offended and uncomfortable when people make presumptuous moves without asking first!
When you say things like "If you want to be rid of the parts you don't like, you also have to give up the parts that benefit you." it makes me think you don't actually understand a thing that we say.
If I didn't make the first move in relationships, I wouldn't have any relationships. The only person who has ever approached me also tried to rape me.
DeletePersonally, I have in fact made the first move on a guy. In all the long-term relationships I've had I've been the one to initiate things (both sexually and things like date plans) the majority of the time. And I've never insisted boys follow any rules that I didn't also hold myself to. And incidentally, I'm a generally shy and introverted person for whom initiating is often rather difficult.
DeleteI have to be honest, being a hetero girl - I stopped asking guys to be my boyfriend/go out when I was 16. And here's why.
When I was 10 everyone was getting boyfriends (just holding hands type stuff.) I tried asking the guy I liked to go out with me. Total "NO!" and disgust was the reaction.
This same negative reaction continued until I was 16: the three or four times during that period that I asked a guy out, he'd say no. I wasn't ugly or anything (in fact I'd been asked out occasionally during this time by guys I wasn't into) but they all said no anyhow.
Maybe they weren't into me. (Although all signals of body language, etc seemed to indicate otherwise.) Maybe I had bad luck cause I didn't meet any guy I liked who also liked me during this time.
But I decided then and there, at 16, (after the last rejection) that I was tired of being rejected. So I made a pact with myself to never ask a guy out again. I figured, to be honest, that no guys liked me AT ALL and that this would mean I would be single and lonely, but at least I wouldn't get my hopes up only to be hurt by rejection.
(note that I'm a very tomboyish person and look men in the eye and usually scare guys anyway, so I figured they didn't like me for lots of reasons.)
Within the next year, I was getting asked out by guys. First, we were friends, the signals seemed to be working (same as before) but the only difference was, *I* didn't take the initiative. And suddenly, they *did* and I got to have a boyfriend.
This continued to work for me, even with the love of my life who I've now been together with for 13 years.
I'm not saying that it's wrong for a girl to ask the guy out. I'm also not saying it's true that girls only *want* guys to ask. I was totally willing to ask! But it seemed to me like the guys didn't feel comfortable with that.
But, I also know a lot of girls, and so I understand where the poster "needsaname" is coming from, because most of the girls I know are the type who refuse to initiate and expect men to be the ones doing the initiating. But I've ran into a lot of the reverse, too (men who want to only do the a