Sunday, February 15, 2009

Fast Seduction!

Thank God that stupid holiday is over with, now I can go out by myself without having to think "dammit, I'm going out by myself on Valentine's Day." 80% of my friends are coupled up and I'm sleeping with (and thus afraid to do potentially-coupley things with) another 10%, so I basically hid under a rock today.

Also frequently found under rocks are the fine men of the "Seduction Community." Let's check out their awesome website!

Cripes, this thing is huge. I guess the writers have plenty of spare time. I'll click around a bit at random.

Don't introduce [this site] to anyone unless you know they are seeking to improve the same things as you. Why? Because through years of witnessing guys try to introduce this site to their AFC [Average Frustrated Chump] friends, the primary reactions of those friends have been negative because, until somebody understands this site or what it's about, their ingrained societal beliefs simply overpower them.
I need to use this tactic more often. "Now, I may seem like a jerk, but that's just your societal conditioning--I'm really a beautiful humanitarian, you just can't see it!"

If she asks me a question about my family, I will IGNORE the question, but... and this is key... I will respond with something charming or a compliment. Some examples, most of which I've already used this week:
HB [Hot Babe]: So Joseph how many brothers and sisters do you have?
J: You know... I am just really admiring that dress you're wearing, that's really hot!

So, uh... did you lose your whole family in some buzzkillingly tragic incident, or are you just being a dick? Also, your tactic might be ineffective on women who haven't suffered major brain injury.

HB: What do you think about the economic crisis?
J: Why do you like/love me so much?

Too taken aback to even answer with a comeback, the HB muttered something about "stuff to do" and had a security guard walk her to her car.

HB: I am mad at you! You were supposed to call me!
J: Look, come here and give me a kiss and all will be forgiven
HB: NO! I am mad at YOU!
J: Come to daddy, it's ok, I ain't mad atcha! C'mere, gimme a kiss, I forgive you

Am I the only one who gets an "or you'll get the belt again" vibe from J's dialogue here? She answers "No, I'm still mad and you're not answering me like an adult," and he rejoinders the only way he knows how.

Browsing through this site, 90% of PUA scenarios describe the same dynamic: women want to deny you sex, and to get laid, you have to beat them at the game. Let's check out some selections from the glossary!

Anti-Slut Defense. The chick logic a woman (especially younger ones) will go through to relieve the guilt having sex too quickly with a man, assuming she has enough time to "think" about the consequences - a reaction which causes them to come up with objections or reasons that they shouldn't fuck you in order to relieve their guilt of taking *responsibility* for doing something that society would often call "slutty".
Yes, she isn't having second thoughts about fucking you, that's unpossible, she's only worried about that goshdarn society!

bitch shield: Not a derogatory term - used to describe a behavior women use when attempting to fend of would-be suitors.
Wow, I'm glad you clarified that, because otherwise calling women "bitches" for not fucking you might've sounded a little derogatory.

Display High Value (action/verb) or Display(s) of High(er) Value. An action or story which increases your perceived value. Can be used positively or negatively depending on your perceived value prior to the DHV and whether the chick is Lower Value (you increase hers or reduce yours, preferably increase hers) or Higher Value (you increase yours or reduce hers, preferably increase yours).
In other words, it's 2d20 minus THAC0, less armor value and increased by weapon damage and any enchantments currently on the target. Tap three Swamps.

There's a whole system here wherein you work out the woman's mathematical value from 0-10 and then do a variety of similarly numerical maneuvers on her. Man, it's gotta be a letdown every time you win mathematically and still don't get fucked. "No, no, you don't understand, my score is ahead of yours by eleven points, you need to take your bra off now!"

The main feature of the site is the supermassive Player's Guide, which is chockablock with oh what the fuck is this.

Me : Hey Alicia. What do you love to eat ? Something that really makes you salivate just by thinking of it ?
Alicia : Oh... I love fresh ripe mangoes from Hawaii / strawberries from Ohio... oh yes...
Me: Ripe mangoes huh? Mmmm....that's yummy. I don't know if you can IMAGINE... SUCKING into one sweet, delicious, juicy mango NOW... mmm... can you taste the sweetness of the mango... swishing INSIDE YOUR MOUTH... mmm... soo tasty... doesn't that give you lots of pleasure and ha-PENIS just thinking about that? Mmm... I bet, if there were a mango here NOW, you'd WANT IT IN YOUR MOUTH (point to dickee!).

If I got him on tape saying this, no jury would convict me for anything I did to him after that point.

Yeah, I can totally hear/feel/see what you mean. Isn't it just great how the things in life that just sneak up behind you unexpectedly? I mean, there are things you know are coming and you can see them, like, "Oh, it's Friday, I'm getting paid today." Now that's in front of you, in your future, but then the best things in life, the ones that can make you FEEL FULFILLED and FEEL SO GOOD FROM YOUR BOTTOM to your top have a tendency to sneak up behind you and COME FROM YOUR REAR. And INSIDE YOU ASS yourself, "This is so great! How can something this great (point to schlong) just take me from behind and surprise me like this?" I mean, that facinates me, take a second and think about how the greatest things (point to schlong) you have ever felt took you from the rear...think about that. It's sexually facinating if you really THINK ABOUT IT and TAKE IT ALL IN ANALlytically.
You know what else in interesting? Is how simple words that I say can make you feel so good. (remember you have been SSing her for a while by now). It's like you feel these things (point to schlong) COMING IN YOUR REAR, ENTERING YOUR REAR, being whispered to you, and it can make you feel so good. Don't you find that when I talk like that, when I DO IT, you can't resist and you just OPEN YOUR REAR and LET IT SLIDE INSIDE YOU, hearing those words and feeling so wonderful?

Shit, I just Maced my monitor.


  1. One of the best things about being a grown-up is you don't have to worry about shit like that. That's why being over 30 is great. You have enough life experience to be yourself, calm down, and not be a self-centred jerk.

    I would have loved to have something like that when I was 21. I wanted to be polywhen I was 21. YMMV, but I got over both it and myself, and am much happier.

  2. That site is so depressing that I can hardly find the energy to hate it.

  3. oh. my. gods. Okay, well, wow. I'm now really really glad mainstream men seem to ignore me. I'd likely have hurt one by now if they didn't.

    Holly, you mentioned that would only work on a woman with a brain injury, well I have a hard time believing any man with full cognitive powers would actually believe that crap would work! It's just.. It's just so stupidly wrong.

  4. Anonymous - I still kinda want to be poly (although it's no longer as important to me as it was about a year ago, and I can see myself quite happy with the right one person), but there's a big difference between "I have genuine caring relationships with multiple people" and "I got hoes in different area codes," y'know?

    Bruno - Honestly, I find it neither depressing nor truly hateful, but simply flabbergasting. These guys have essentially reduced human interaction to a complex RPG that only they know they're playing.

    Maja - Those are not "mainstream men," trust me. Those are men under the slimy little rocks at the very bottom of the stream.

  5. I was skeeved until I got to that last bit. Now I just find it HILARIOUS that ANYONE thinks that's how you can get anal.

  6. Old, old primitive stuff, but some people are hypnotists and can pull it off. The SC does men one great favor, which is teaching them to regard attraction as a process one can participate in with women, rather than something doled out by genetics in a certain measure to each person, intangible yet finite, placing a hard limit on the number of women who can be attracted by "being one's self."

    Everything else is commentary by a Pick-Up Artist who often doesn't realize that what he does is so dependent on his personality and body that other men can't readily replicate it.

    For the rest, anything out in public is old, unwieldy stuff, the best of the SC is really oriented towards self-improvement and actually strips away much of the old Game, leading to success by "being your best self."

  7. Eurosabra - No, there is no personality and no hypnotism skill that can pull off "Why do you like me so much?" let alone "TAKE IT ALL IN ANALytically."

    There's participation, and then there's a sad, sad attempt to control.

    As for self-improvement, hey, I'm all for that, but there's damn little evidence of it in any seduction community websites I've seen. It's pretty much all about "bitches don't wanna give it up, you gotta trick them."

  8. Oh endless fucking night no. My mind can't process this hilarity/sadness right after the Fetish Flea. Do you go looking for this stuff in the same way I go looking for terrible soul-crushing pornography? Do you really need to challenge yourself and try to stay sane? ;-)

    Anon - Sadly, I've met a lot of people over 30 who're still self-centered jerks.

  9. The dynamic of "gatekeeping" is usually labeled as "Yes I Do But Not With You". It might be easier to believe "Every woman wants me, she just doesn't know it yet." With some of them remaining remarkably obtuse.

    As for the hypnotism, I've seen it done and I've done it, with the caveat that I was already in rapport and genuinely emotionally attached. It's serving up a detailed description of a fantasy, nothing more. The stuff on the website is crude, voyeuristic crap, but any decent tantric work involves altered states of consciousness.

    Nothing good and workable is on a website anyway, it's possibly deliberately placed there for you to mock.

    I've actually used "Why do you like me so much?" with rather good success, but it helps if you genuinely mesh with someone on many, many levels, and you are both already aware of it. Rapport-building vs. rapport-seeking.

  10. Eurosabra - The dynamic of "gatekeeping" is usually labeled as "Yes I Do But Not With You."
    It's also labeled as "the right to choose one's sexual partners." It's a feature, not a bug.

    And dammit, we're not "gatekeepers," we're people. The thing you don't seem to be getting is that in order for me to give you sex, I'd have to have sex too. Do you understand? The reason I control "access" to my pussy isn't because of society or bitchiness or power games, it's because IT'S ATTACHED TO ME.

    As for the hypnotism, I've seen it done and I've done it, with the caveat that I was already in rapport and genuinely emotionally attached.
    But not too attached to attempt to mess with someone's mind without her knowledge, I guess?

    Nothing good and workable is on a website anyway, it's possibly deliberately placed there for you to mock.
    Ah, so there are tricks that really work, but those ones are secret. Mmm hmm.

    I've actually used "Why do you like me so much?" with rather good success, but it helps if you genuinely mesh with someone on many, many levels, and you are both already aware of it.
    Really. Okay then.

    ...Eurosabra, why do you mail me cash so much?

  11. Holly,

    The problem is inadequate sample size and insufficient social diversity--most men don't do enough asking to conclude that women aren't a monolith. There's a reason the SC tells participants to ask out 50 women a week and say yes to practically any woman who asks. (After all, someone who picked YOU must have good taste.) As long as you're not actually violating someone else's rights, you can FEEL that things are unfair as much as you want. Not a productive approach but some people really like self-righteousness.

    Hypnotism is a very weak form of influence, you can only lead someone down a path they're willing to travel. So obviously there's no room for inventive, descriptive language that might cause someone to dwell on certain desires in your world of seduction. Everyone just gets spontaneously horny and starts pounding on each other? Lucky you.

    I like you because you're a snarky, cheeky, royal pain in the @$$. But I'm still not gonna send you any cash.

  12. You haven't seen t3h r34l s3duct10n yet, that's all. It's kind of like Wing Chun. In public they get their butts kicked . . . a lot . . . to protect the secret teachings of Yip Man, the true grandmaster of Wing Chun. Their scientific principles allow them to control any fight, unless an observer is present.

  13. I still kinda want to be poly (although it's no longer as important to me as it was about a year ago, and I can see myself quite happy with the right one person)

    Did anything in particular change your mind, or did it just happen?

  14. Eurosabra - As long as you're not actually violating someone else's rights, you can FEEL that things are unfair as much as you want. Not a productive approach but some people really like self-righteousness.
    I sure do! :)

    But honestly, my main objection to PUA isn't that it seduces women against their will--she'd have to be dumb as a rock. My main objections are that it won't work and it'll make you more bitter and sexist in the process, and that it's based on ravingly sexist principles.

    (After all, for all your knowledge on the topic, you sure don't seem to have a sex life that's satisfactory for you.)

    There's a reason the SC tells participants to ask out 50 women a week and say yes to practically any woman who asks.
    Yeah, because that's the only way it could ever work. It's like those diet pills that say "just take these pills--and eat 1000 calories a day--and you'll lose tons!" And if it gets you out of a shell I guess it's kind of a good thing.

    But that goodness is lost when your approach to all 50 is contrived, bumbling, and absolutely reeking of "hi there #47, I see you have a body type consistent with owning a vagina, that's very attractive to me!"

    And then you get turned down by all 50 and you conclude that women are bitches who are out to get you.

    Hypnotism is a very weak form of influence, you can only lead someone down a path they're willing to travel.
    Oh, well, I can make someone want to do something they want to do also. It's pretty much called asking. (Or better yet, talking about and agreeing.)

    Everyone just gets spontaneously horny and starts pounding on each other? Lucky you.
    No, people meet and build rapport in an honest and mutual fashion, with neither party attempting to covertly control the other. Then they get horny via ordinary natural attraction, mutually agree to pound, and then the pounding.

    I noticed that one of the first things they discuss on the PUA page is "the myth that normal guys get laid." Um... no. This is utter, ridiculous, cult-like bullshit. As a fucker of normal guys and a friend of other normal guys who get it like it's going out of style, trust me, human beings are quite capable of mating in the wild. Happens every day. Really.

    Sometimes talking about these things makes me feel like I'm giving a long, patient, detailed explanation of why water is wet.

    I like you because you're a snarky, cheeky, royal pain in the @$$.
    I was going to answer this "well, I genuinely don't like you," but in the interests of honesty, in some perverse way I live having you to kick around. Don't ever mistake that for affection. Just a sort of snarking convenience, like having a "Cosmopolitan" that actually comes to me.

  15. GreenEarth - I fell out of a satisfying poly relationship and witnessed a lot of dysfunctional ones. And I had a guy ask me "do you think you could ever be with just one man?" and found my answer was yes.

  16. Having read only a little of that PUA site (hilarious) it seems like a lot of the principles have good ideas at their core, but extended WAY too far into creepy jerk space.

    For example, supreme confidence seems to be a key point. Confidence is a good thing for both sexes and in many different social interactions. But PUAs push it all the way to being self-important assholes. Likewise it is good and healthy to not become obsessed with a single object of affection. But PUAs instead devalue their targets completely, indiscriminately asking out hundreds of women and seeing them as marks instead of people.

    Not really sure what to think of the NLP stuff. It's easy to say it's dishonest and creepy, especially if used to control the decisions of others. OTOH, I do think there's a kind of science to how people respond to language, and there can be a fuzzy line between "hypnosis" and "talking sexy" if you really get into a mood. So maybe there are good ideas buried in NLP too but extended to a manipulating, power-tripping degree.

    I'm still laughing at "maced my monitor." :)

  17. Good god, do these guys genuinely think following these instructions turns them into some kind of psychic vampire mindrapist hypnotists? Cause it looks like they are completely oblivious to the fact that women have libidos. It seems they would have a better chance having sex through sheer blind luck than slogging through all this shit.

  18. It depends whether you word the question as "normal" or "ordinary", and, quite frankly, if you're not a natural extrovert, or you've been bullied into a self-effacing passivity, all it's going to take is a tiny amount of social mismatching or overcompensation to drive women (with their finely-tuned social antennae) away. Added to that is the fact that these guys may often be of a specific physical type or stylistic type that as such appeals only to a small subset of women (pale cadaverous goth, rotund tweed-wearing preppy) and you have a recipe for disaster.

    Of course, people who love to contrast PUA with natural rapport don't realize that they belong to a certain lucky subsection of the population who can effortlessly develop natural rapport by being naturally physically attractive or, in the case of some others, merely being a cis-woman with a naturally-occurring vagina. Brute-force hypnosis is crude and is the sort of thing people like to mock, the irony is that more subtle, rapport-based pick-up will bring you into contact with someone whose intangibles are more likely to match up with yours.

    So, yes, once again, you're missing the point: "natural attraction" is, in the experience of some men, not something that they HAVE, or that happens to THEM. Hence PUA. It's true there is an appeal to fantasies of power and control, but to be perfectly blunt, one has to be a master hypnotist to produce that anyway, and it's far easier to simply find someone who's a match.

  19. "The point of isolating (when clubbing) is for less cockblocking, and isolating for making her more comfortable, and free her out of social pressure when it comes to what we all love, sex. Still some girls freaks out when they are isolated when they talk about sex... reframe it to a certain level, then if she keeps being against sex, she isn’t a real women anyway, because she's an Anti-sexual piece of crap."

  20. Eurosabra -

    1. Who told you that everyone with a vagina gets everything they want sexually? This isn't remotely true. Even young cute outgoing women don't have hot and cold running sex on tap, never mind the 90% of women who aren't young/cute/outgoing.

    2. Your options aren't "hide in a closet" or PUA. There's plenty of room to work on improving your appearance and personality and building your confidence without resorting to hypnosis and number values and "isolation" and the "bitch shield" and all this dehumanizing RPG bullshit.

  21. 1. Again, not that they get everything they want, but that they are NATURALLY objects of others' desires (however problematic that is) and are constantly approached as such, whereas men have to initiate in the context of a system where if they are not NATURALLY attractive or capable of causing attraction, they will not be seen as potential or actual objects of desire and their efforts will fail, however rooted in improvement of their appearance, personality, and confidence, they still need women to want to FUCK them, and that means garnering attraction, through some fairly direct button-pushing means.

    2. The "RPG Shit" is geared to the club environment, and makes certain perennial causes of failure to connect clear. Isolation is a case in point; either you get a woman comfortable enough to hang with you instead of her friends, at least temporarily, or the friend who is LEAST comfortable with your approach, appearance, social status, etc. will take her away from you. Likewise, the "Bitch Shield" IS a reality, women in clubs really DO put up a blank, uncommunicative front. Sometimes it's an act and they really DO want to meet someone, sometimes it's not.

  22. It's been my experience that the instant I step outside the house, any nearby women are like, OMFG rapist! Kill! And several gunshots later, the police show up and arrest my corpse for being a mess on the sidewalk. After being resurrected (the fee's a killer, I'm deeply in debt thanks to repeated deaths) they don't seem to know I'm even there, so I can go about shopping or whatever I left the house for, unmolested. And as long as they're not noticing me, sometimes I listen into their conversations, and it seems that they mostly just complain about how they can't get laid because men don't exist, period. Yet they all have children. I suspect parthenogenesis. But then I have to go home again. Never looking forward to next time I have to leave the house. The whole situation's probably a government conspiracy somehow.

    ...Okay, that was so over the top I don't even know what I'm mocking anymore.

  23. Really, Holly, this is basic, basic stuff. Thing is, you're afraid of rejection, so you don't necessarily make an effort. And then some guy comes along and offers you a date.

    Maybe 1% of men get IMs "out of the blue" asking for A DATE. (I've been IMed tons of times by women looking for an "activity partner".) Pick-up is an adaptation to an environment where men are almost always placed in the position of selling themselves to ANY prospect, which is something (as the possessor of a naturally-occurring vagina) you don't HAVE to do. I suggest you ask cute co-worker out to get a feel for what it's like to be a man in a performative, male-initiation-dependent system.

  24. Okay, so now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

    There are patterns to human behavior. Some efforts to teach pattern recognition fall prey to jargon.

  25. Eurosabra - I didn't get an IM out of the blue literally asking for a date. I got an IM out of the blue saying "hi" that ended up with us arranging a date--it wasn't literally dropped in my lap. And I didn't get the IM literally out of the blue either, I got it from someone who knows me by my participation in various online communities.

    Anyway I'm twenty-three, urban, kinky, outgoing, and run a goddamn sex blog--I'm not your typical vagina-owner. A woman who's older, unattractive, and shy (still technically considered a woman!) will not share my experiences.

    Approaching cute coworker is intimidating, absolutely no doubt of that. And I don't know exactly how or even if I'll ask him out. But I'm not going to bullshit him or hypnotize him or think of him as a dehumanized manipulation "target." As I said before, it's not PUA or nothing. Just because getting partners is tough doesn't mean ridiculous bullshit will help.

  26. As I said, the purpose of pick-up is to render certain patterns of behavior in a restricted environment intelligible. And apparently it's field-tested enough that pursuing it in the proper environment will yield better results than random shit, because status-seeking women in clubs will react in similar ways to certain similar stimuli. (Called "being charming" by those who can do it unreflectively and naturally.)

  27. A few years ago my friends would sit in bookstores laughing over how pathetic the advice in those PUA books was. Then I moved from rural AZ to metro DC... and met guys at bars who *clearly* thought PUA/NLP was God's Gift. Sometimes I ask them what book they've read, and a few times this has shocked them back to human and I've had nice conversations with them.

    What saddens me is that a lot of these guys would be *fine* with a little more confidence and lot less of this "you-have-the-sex-and-you-are-keeping-it-from-me" attitude.

    Sure, anything, ANYTHING that gets a guy (can't call 'em men!) to talk to a women will be 100% more effective then "hiding in the closet," but the PUA/NLP/etc. stuff promotes this weird dynamic where anywoman not sleeping with a PUA is denying him the sex he has is entitled to.

    I know the PUA book goes into consensual sex to an extent, and rebrands women who don't want to have sex with the PUA "anti-sexual piece[s] of crap," but if this whole bundle isn't a fair example of 'rape culture*,' it cuddles up next to it happily enough.

    Anyway, thanks for the blog, I've enjoyed your take on the whole PUA phenomena!

    (*which isn't to say that I think these guys, who really just want a magical script to follow so that girls will like them are rapists: I mean that it promotes a dynamic of "sex at a non-consensual power differential" as opposed to "sex between people of equal agency".)

  28. I began thinking seriously about what really bothered me about hearing "No" all the time, literally from EVERY woman I approached, and whether it was the "No" or whether the problem was that it was ALL THE TIME from EVERY WOMAN. One of the things that those who scream "rape culture" with respect to PUA forget is that a certain amount of male grumpiness is due to the largely greater range of romantic options of the average straight woman compared to the average (straight) man. So in the aggregate, most men get a LOT MORE rejection than a woman of equal attractiveness, and the holders of the "rape culture" paradigm consider that male dissatisfaction AS an objection to ANY ONE woman's (and EVERY WOMAN'S) RIGHT to SAY "NO", instead of a (fairly justified) dissatisfaction with a genuinely more difficult situation.

    Because I guar-damn-tee you I *don't* have equal power to women (agency is different, but in the West you have to be trafficked or in conditions approaching it before you really lose agency) insofar as the average woman I see is greatly more empowered than I am in almost every realm, thanks to feminism, and the female tendency to hypergamy means that they will be looking to "improve upon" their situation.

    So, really, the difference between an entitlement mentality and actual entitlement is crucial here, and it's not "rape culture" or even next to it unless you have the capacity to make consent IRRELEVANT and the willingness to do so. The attitude may be unsavory, but "you're keeping it from me" is different from "I just went ahead and had unavoidable sex with you."

  29. If you're getting "no" from EVERYONE, the problem isn't your penis. It's you. And it's not fat-brown-hunchback-PTSD-Asperger's you; it's creepy-fuck you.

    There are equal numbers of men and women in the world, and I promise you the women aren't all screwing the same ten guys.

    And if "privilege" amounts to how easily I can randomly fuck someone of the opposite sex as long as I'm not fussy, then whoo, I'm queen of the fuckin' world. I'd kinda rather have equal wages and personal safety and public respect and whatever, but I guess you know what REALLY matters.

    Having sex is not a fucking human right. Saying no to sex is. And when you start wailing that women owe you their pussies and they're oppressing you by not fucking you, you sound like a horrible creep.

    And, y'know, being a horrible creep is the reason you're not getting laid, so...

  30. The fun part is that even though he's come up with every excuse under the sun for why he simply has no choice but to treat women like ambulatory vaginas with stat sheets attached, Eurosabra sure as sweet fuckall wants to be treated like a special snowflake of an individual HIMSELF, or else there'd be no endless whining about privilege and he'd do what PUAs are supposed to- move on and find another woman or women that are impressed with their bullshit.

    I'd say this is inconsistent, but it's not- he's certainly never pretended that any of it was about anyone or anything other than him. Which is, as you said, reason number one with a bullet why he's not getting laid.

  31. I'm just bemused. My "natural object of others' desires" has only gotten me anywhere because I ask guys out. Who are, y'know, the natural object of my desires because I'm STRAIGHT.

    The sexist tedium of the "only women are really attractive, people don't like looking at mens" thing I've blogged about before, so I won't repeat myself. Today, I laugh.

  32. You inspired me to rant, too, although my rant didn't turn out as mockingly concise as yours did.

    Just thought I'd leave you a note, since I've been reading your blog for a while and I think you are a hilarious writer.

  33. Yah, it's crude. Go out and meet (in one week) 50 strangers you'd like to sleep with and be totally agenda-less. It's hard. One of the more interesting PUAs is Paul Janka, an old acquaintance of mine from the neighborhood, with only an 11% success rate DESPITE his movie-star good looks. The verdict in general is that be brings the creepy, since he's confrontational ("You're not in a hurry, Babe. This is NYC, everyone's always in a hurry. Your time is NOT more valuable than mine") in a you-owe-me-sex kind of way.

    Lots of straight men believe they HAVE to have to have to have to initiate absolutely EVERYTHING, while being totally reactive to women, which is not an easy position to be in, culturally. PUA gets you a radical micro-management of your presentation and your actions without (necessarily) an examination of your assumptions about sex. But intuition is not sterotyped as a male trait in this culture.

    One red herring--or at least I've found it so--is that PUA divides women's subcultures according to mainstream-beauty-compliance, when in fact individual diversity should just lead to a general "throwing up of hands" on that particular topic. You just don't KNOW until you meet her.

  34. @ Eurosabra - Perhaps instead of spending all those $$$ on PUA courses those guys should just spend a summer in Italy or France and learn how it's really done and enjoy themselves in the process.

    "Likewise, the "Bitch Shield" IS a reality, women in clubs really DO put up a blank, uncommunicative front. Sometimes it's an act and they really DO want to meet someone, sometimes it's not."

    A lot of times in clubs, women are just as nervous as men, which can make them look blank & uncommunicative. (Either that or you go to a lot of clubs with women with Botox, lol).

    Gay clubs are good places to meet straight women. Don't go to clubs where loads of other guys are lurking to hit on the women - go to places where the women predominate!! Basic math.

    Also, if you are continually turned down, recalibrate, don't do the same thing over & over, try something different. Ask less attractive women. Maybe you have too high an estimation of your own attractiveness to women. All of your comments seem to be about the effect on women of your techniques of PUA/chat-up, not reflection on your own personality/looks/presentation and approach.

    Anyway, whatever.

    1. Actually, one of the reasons straight women go to gay clubs is to dance and drink and NOT be hassled by random dudes looking to get laid. If she wanted to be hit on (by dudes), she'd have gone to a place that's NOT full of gay dudes. I got hit on by a dude at a gay bar. I said "I'm gay" and left.

      Seriously, just... talk to people. Women are people, they are not walking sex toys. If you'd stop thinking of them that way, you might actually have a nice time and connect with someone!

  35. oh. my. dog.

    what is this i don't even

  36. Eurobrasa,

    I'm just curious--do you genuinely believe that no socially-awkward women exist?

    (I love being told I don't exist. It's so much fun!"