Thursday, April 30, 2009

You'd think if it worked so well they wouldn't have to talk about it so much...

Sometimes I think I spend too much time picking on my own side. Feminists, perverts, girly girls, we may have our differences but ultimately I'm one of you. We should hug more.

Some people, on the other hand, are just complete pieces of shit.

Ah, that's harsh. They're not really hypnotizing women into being their sex slaves, they're just spinning elaborate fantasy worlds about it, and no one's really getting hurt. These guys aren't pieces of shit, they just wish they were. Which is just funny.

Random featured article: Women are Bitches... Don't get uptight ladies, it's just a metaphor for dogs! You know, dogs you want to have sex with.
Dont treat a dog like a person. Treat a dog like a dog.
Corollary: Dont treat a woman like a man. Treat a woman like a woman. My friends wife wants to "talk about our situation" but "today isnt right. Lets talk on Sunday". I told him, "Fuck that. First off, as soon as you start "talking" about the relationship, you're fucked, because women are incapable of holding a logical, honest discussion about solving a problem.

Well. There ya go. Do I really have to say anything about that? I don't think I could do it logically and honestly, anyway. Remember folks, at its heart PUA is about loving and respecting women! (Incidentally, this guy is also wrong about dog training.)

Jesus. Okay, how about The Ten Rules of PUA?
1.Be honest, Don't Lie
Well, except for the rather large lie of omission about you playing a massive bizarre Internet-based RPG in which she counts as an XP point.

2.Always leave a girl better than you found her.
Take her in for regular repairs and oil changes, and throughly wash and vacuum her as a courtesy to the next owner.

3.Logistics seperate Masters and Amateurs.
This was one of the most important things I ever learned. NVP taught me it. There is no point in trying to bring a girl home, if your roommates mom is there that weekend.

Ah yeah, that's a real high-level advanced move there, actually having a bed to put your conquests in. I'm fairly sure by "roommates mom is there" he means "my mom is home and my swanky basement room doesn't have a separate entrance."

4.It is very hard to say no while laughing
Actually, in certain cases it's hard to say no without laughing.

Christ, and so on. A lot of this article is just him telling ridiculously fake stories about women he seduced instantly and absolutely through methods he curiously never details. "At first she hated me, but I just, y'know, worked my stuff, and five minutes later she was sharing my cock with her best friend. This is totally normal for me." Yeah, whatever.

And then there's... whatever the fuck this is.

The weird thing is I do know a couple guys who get laid all the time, and not only are they not PUAs, they're really not jerks either. Jerks got laid in high school, but out in the real world most alpha-dog douches have pretty sparse and unhappy relationships. The men I know who have the most and best sex are the ones who genuinely like women (which is different from genuinely liking to bone them) and have female friends. Guys who can make sex a fun friendly thing get about a million times more casual pussy than guys who treat women like goalkeepers.


  1. When I started to get back into dating after separating from my wife, I saw the PUA stuff and thought, "bingo!"

    Until I read it.

    Apparently I'm a feminist, because I have the crazy notion that women are people.

    There are some grains of truth in that stuff, though... the most important one is that confidence is key. you don't have to be "cocky and funny," laughingly insulting her... just be genuine.

    being someone you're not in order to get laid is at best hollow, and at worst, deceitful. I have to live in my skin for the rest of my life... no sense making it harder than it already is. :~)

  2. I think that the very act of making up complicated RPG battle plans for the relatively simple act of walking into a room, approaching an attractive woman, and striking up a conversation is a pretty clear indication of someone who couldn't get laid if his life depended on it.

    Also: Dude. Women who are in abusive relationships generally have severe emotional problems and lousy self-esteem. Most women will not actually let a guy beat them up if they have some kind of recourse, any more than they'll let some random jerk treat them like dogs.

    And yeah, epic fail on dog-behavior comprehension.

  3. Eh, I've been running across these jokers or their predecessors since back in the days of reading alt.romance on Usenet (which got a lot of trolls crossposting with and bringing over flamewars between different "gurus").

    Seduction/PUA "experts" don't seduce women. They seduce men - into thinking that their ideas have merit, that these people are knowledgeable and competent and able to give good advice. It's men that buy the books, attend the seminars, etc.

  4. One of the continuing debates about pick-up is "authenticity". I don't know if pushing the hot buttons of the subcultures of women who like sexy/sexist teasing is that bad, but it's certainly open for mockery when it's advertised as Godlike Power.

    It's basically becoming traditional-masculinity-compliant and then chasing some subcultures of women who are traditional-femininity compliant.

    Yeah, it's dehumanizing. Approaching 250 people to date and hook up with and getting turned down by 249 of them is dehumanizing unless you have the Zen of being desireless down pat, or you are tough to the point of being inhuman.

    You seem a bit perceptive in that you once had the "This THING is broken, it won't do what I want" response to rejection, which is a VERY stereotypically-masculine response.

    Aebhel: I can have tons of conversations with women who are not attracted to me, about subjects that do not spark attraction. Attraction is the key. (As well as avoiding the dehumanizing thinking of "Be attracted to me now, dammit, Miss Thing!")
    Because masculinity is performative, your "couldn't get laid if his life depended on it" is meant to rankle. That is, in your view, socially-awkward straight men who desire sex are being justly punished for their awkwardness?

  5. Hah. pAImAI is autistic geek speak for "approach women who display non-verbal signs of openness to meeting someone."

    Anyway, I rolled a "7" on 2d6, which I'm sure means something if you'll let me check my Pick-Up Master's Guide, 2nd. rev. ed.

  6. I agree, of course, with what you've said here. But I'd like to add that based on what I've read/seen, that there are some branches of PUA that aren't based on the "dog training"/"women have to be tricked into sex" model. They're just methods to learn how to come off as fun and confident while talking to women, without running out of things to say.

    After all, some guys DO have a huge problem doing that. They're shy, they freeze up, they worry all the time that women think they're lame, they don't "get" how to flirt. Who among us has not been approached by a man who tried to sustain conversation by being all like "where are you from, how long have you lived here, where do you work, how long have you worked there, where did you go to college," etc. etc., for like ten minutes -- or something equally off-putting?

    These guys COULD use some strategies that will help them show off what's interesting about their personality. We all think it's hilarious when guys "don't know how to talk to women," but telling them "god, you loser, just go strike up a conversation!" isn't going to get them there. If you're terribly shy, or have little social experience, it's just NOT that easy. (I'm shy too, so I can sympathize.)

    Of course, these programs do indeed draw in sociopaths like the one you quote. I don't think that's all there is to it, though.

  7. Eurosabra-- You're operating under the assumption that women deny men sex to punish them for not fitting their expectations. Seriously? Seriously, a woman turning down an invitation to sleep with a guy she's not interested in is "punishment"? I wasn't aware that women were required to give sex to the men who approached him, and to deny it was a violation of the Geneva Convention.

  8. Haha I think at least 90% of your posts make me want to go "Amen!!" after I finish reading. Not for spiritual reasons but because I agree SO HARD and you said it so perfectly!

  9. Anon: No one's required to do anything, but there's an unspoken social assumption that heterosexual men are required to initiate. And it's hard work, unless the man in question is (for whatever reason) naturally gifted at sparking attraction or an astute social operator.

  10. That is, in your view, socially-awkward straight men who desire sex are being justly punished for their awkwardness?No. In my view, sex isn't something that men get by default, and not having sex isn't a punishment. In other words, the fact that a guy wants to sleep with me in no way obligates me to sleep with him. And if he thinks that playing mind games to get what he wants is a reasonable way to treat anyone, let alone someone he might want to form an intimate relationship with, well, I'm not going to be too sympathetic when he strikes out.

    And don't pull the 'oh, I'm too socially awkward to make it if I treat women like human beings, pity me' crap. I'm a shy geek myself. I married a shy geek. I've slept with plenty of socially awkward guys, but I wouldn't sleep with someone who treated me like PUA's are suggesting guys treat women. If you're too socially awkward to approach a woman in a romantic/sexual manner, work on developing your social skills. Don't play dominance games and bullshit mind-tricks on women and then whine when you can't get in their pants.

  11. Ah, it's the usual debate about "authenticity." And "entitlement." To be perfectly blunt, pick-up is still trying to match your partners, which really only works if you're working off the same social cues. But very often, you are. If you're playing dominance games with someone who wants to play them with you, that's a match. Again, attraction, while individual, isn't nebulous, and I'm sure all of us have acquaintances who are bright, funny, extroverted people who still have trouble pairing up.

    There needs to be some playfulness there that treating it as blood sport doesn't get you, coupled with a willingness to risk disappointment that some people just don't have.

  12. Alpha males do not put up with bullshit from women. Generally, you should not be overt in communicating this, but there are times when that is necessary. Franco calls this being the Godfather. She didnt know what she wanted to eat, so you ordered for you and her. She didnt like it, so you ate yours AND HERS (you think an alpha dog is gonna let some bitches food go to waste?). She starts acting bitchy. This is no longer about the meal, its about her place in the pack. She is making a power play. There are a lot of different ways you can handle this, from knocking her up side the head pimp-style, to Godfathers "You've disappointed me", but they should all communicate that the CEO is not going to put up with bullshit from the VP in charge of Vagina, so unless she wants to get downsized fucking ricky-tick, she needs to shape up. Sorry, Eurosabra. I read something like this and I don't see a playful interaction between two people with the same expectations. I see an emotionally abusive fuckwit with delusions of grandeur.

  13. PUA has always seemed to me to be the exchanging of techniques or styles which never work for techniques or styles which rarely work.

  14. Franco is a high mucky-muck of Mediterranean heritage in some technology corporation in Finland who gets off on finding switch Finnish and Baltic women (with their Scandinavian feminism or Baltic traditionalism) and getting them in touch with their "sex slave" side. These guys are so niche market they don't realize it, they're doms who play with subs in a possibly-unfriendly way because ALL women are natural subs and masochists, dontcha know.

  15. Eurosabra - That is, in your view, socially-awkward straight men who desire sex are being justly punished for their awkwardness?So in your view, not fucking a man is a punishment? Goddamn, Eurosabra. I said this before but apparently it didn't sink in: vagina is not a human right. It's a part of human beings who do have rights. Like the right to decide--"fairly" or randomly or downright cruelly, it's just not your call to make--who they want to have sex with.

    Anyway, the ethics of magically hypnotizing women to do your will are irrelevant, because you know better than anyone that IT DOESN'T WORK. You're PUing your little heart out and you don't have a satisfactory sex life anyway! All it's giving you is a bad attitude and an excellent set of excuses. Why do you want to defend it?

    Finally, if you're worried about being awkward, let me tell you that most women (yes, even the hot ones) are fairly forgiving of an awkward but friendly and respectful suitor. Whereas an awkward handling of hypnosis-dominance bullshit will peg you as Fucking Crazy, Do Not Approach The Glass in ten seconds flat.

  16. Not the "not fucking" as punishment, but that awkwardness leads more to "not fucking" than "fucking".

    And no, I haven't actually been playing the dominance-submission or hypnosis side of pick-up in ages. I am approaching a frightening aporia, to the extent that I want to be light and playful--insofar as any "method" is good for that, it would be "Mystery Method", which can tip over into clownishness--but I find myself having to adjust my psyche. I defend it because I find it practically responsive to my frustrations--which were a result of being so obtuse as to not communicate interest/notice signs of interest--even as I recognize the cultural schizophrenia of NOT being able to, not wanting to live my life on the basis of PU's wider vision of women, even though it appeals to me ideologically. (I'm a sub who wonders what it would be like to top, also recognizing that I have too many remaining anger issues to trust myself as a top.) My actual relationships are rather functional, after all. I have a lot of work to do on my attitude, presentation, delivery and energy, and it helps to be MORE empathetic and "happier on one's own" than less. (And consequently less desperate to please.)

  17. Y'know, reading the comments here, I just wind up shaking my head and going, "Man, I'm glad I never did that whole 'dating' thing. I never had to wade through the reams of self-involved pseudohypnotists, I could just deal with the guys who were attracted to me and the guys I was attracted to and find the overlap."

  18. Um, usually people are attracted to other people of a similar physical attractiveness level. End of story. The PUA thing is all dumb. Just go talk to women or men who are approximately the same level of attractiveness as you are, and you should be fine.

    The title of this post says it all !!!