My mother used to (well, probably still does, but it's no longer my problem) very openly gawk at people with unusual piercings or hairstyles or modes of dress. When I'd get embarrassed by this, she'd tell me, "But they want attention, or they wouldn't do things like that! They want to be looked at!"
I hear the echoes of that sentiment when people complain about a woman dressing all sexy and putting on makeup, then being offended when guys hit on her.
Because maybe she does want attention, but not from everyone who sees her. Maybe that attention was supposed to be in the form of admiring looks, but not hitting-on; maybe it was supposed to be hitting-on, but not groping. Or maybe she wants to be hit on, but not in a creepy way by creepy dudes.
Or maybe she doesn't want attention at all. Maybe she just wants to look nice to feel good about herself, in a way that isn't entirely sexual. Looking "good" and looking "sexy" have a lot of overlap for women, and an outfit that to her says "I'm going to look casual but fashionable, I take pride in my appearance" almost always ends up showing a bit of skin.
Women also face a catch-22 that the pierced people don't--we have to look sexy in a certain degree just to not be ugly. Going out in baggy jeans and a sweatshirt doesn't protect you--it gets you shit for not showing it off and being a presumed lesbian man-hater.
With all this ambiguity, what's a dude who's not psychic to do? Don't be creepy. Don't assume that because a woman is in a short skirt and heels that she's any more up for it than a woman in baggy jeans and a sweatshirt. Don't think that the way a woman is dressed gives you permission to do anything you wouldn't otherwise.
So what's a dude who's not psychic and not celibate to do? Don't be creepy. Very few women are horrified and offended by being politely hit on. When women complain about getting too much attention, usually that attention came not in the form of "hello, pardon me but you're very beautiful, would you like to get a drink sometime" but in catcalls, staring, leering, refusals to take a hint, refusals to take a not-just-a-hint, and inappropriate touching. That shit's not ever okay.
In general, women who complain about male attention when they were asking for it, got shit that was a lot worse than just "attention" and they weren't asking for it.
Side note: Guys, when you hit on a woman and she says "no," do not ask "why not?" I've heard this quite a few times and it absolutely flabbergasts me. Because no, is why not. Because I don't owe you anything, including an explanation. Because the odds of me going "oh, you're right, there is no good reason, silly me, let's fuck now" are infinitesimal. Besides, the explanation is usually very unflattering to you, and you don't really want to force me to say it.
Ugh. I write these posts and I always worry it sounds like I don't want guys to hit on me. But I do! I'm very attracted to guys! I love being nicely hit on! I just don't want to be hit on by guys who can't tell the difference between "expressing attraction to" and "creepily creeping on like a creeper."
*applauds* You said what I was trying to say in response to that previous post much better than I could say it.
ReplyDeleteJust because I'm dressed attractively doesn't mean I'm doing it for *you* (general you). Therefore, compliments for compliments' sake are much appreciated! Compliments that imply you own my prettiness or are entitled to it in some way are NOT.
Mistress Matisse put up a pretty good post about this topic a few years ago, too: http://mistressmatisse.blogspot.com/2006/07/wella-wella-yesterdays-post-definitely.html
--Andy
Since I already have my asbestos underwear on . . .
ReplyDeleteDon't assume that because a woman is in a short skirt and heels that she's any more up for it than a woman in baggy jeans and a sweatshirt.
She owes me (and everyone else) nothing, of course, but the message she's sending us is different. Some of it will depend on context, but it seems to me that if a woman puts more effort into "looking sexy" (an ambiguous term), she's generally more likely to be looking for attention.
I've tried to make it clear that I do not excuse men who won't take no (in all its glorious permutations) for an answer, but I think it's unreasonable, as Holly says, for ESP to be a prerequisite for being polite.
Bruno - There's a difference between "looking for attention" and "up for it." (Although she may not even be looking for attention--sometimes you just want to look nice and you're not thinking about it in terms of men.) Like I said, just "attention," in the literal sense, is rarely the problem.
ReplyDelete"but the message she's sending us is different."
ReplyDeleteThat's precisely the point: there's no reason to think the message is necessarily for *you.* You can wish that it is, hope that it is, maybe even politely ask if it is, no problem, but your statement implies that part of you already subconsciously assumes that it is.
--Andy
Andy, I appreciate that you've been so civil in making your points, but I honestly don't think I'm making the assumptions that you assert.
ReplyDeleteI think I internalized the opposite message. There's the idea out there that it's creepy or harmful if someone insufficiently attractive expresses interest, irrespective of how that interest is expressed. It's "how dare he/she hit on me; don't they know they're old/fat/ugly?"
ReplyDeleteI know I've got some cognitive bias going on here, and this is rare; I've only been directly on the receiving end of this a few times, and most (though not all) of it a long time ago (such a shame that our formative years are shaped by interacting with peers who are just as immature as we are). Still, it's traumatic enough that I know I don't want to deal with it again. So I've come to assume that, absent direct signals to the contrary, anyone who appears to be inviting attention won't want that attention to come from me, and I just avoid (or get seriously distressed by) situations that feel "competitively social."
I really don't know how to reconcile those two situations though, beyond the "don't be creepy" advice that I try my damnedest to follow.
Just an aside, if anyone's wondering about why freaks look like freaks (Holly, you can read this to your mom if you'd like):
ReplyDeleteIt's not necessarily for "attention" (or at least not "attention" from everyone...). I'm tattooed and have partly-shaved, partly-technicolour hair for the same reason most people make their particular fashion choices: self-expression. I feel more like MYSELF this way. If nobody ever again asked me about my tattoos or told me "OMG your hair is so bright!" that would be just fine. I don't hate people's interest in my peculiar fashion choices but I don't thrive on it, either.
Some other freaks look the way they do in order to keep people away from trying to be friendly with them (the human version of porcupine quills) because they are angry or have social anxiety or what-have-you.
And, okay, some people definitely do do that stuff for attention. I've heard people in my social circle complain that "OMG I totally took out my tragus piercing because now everyone has one."
As with the "dressing sexy" issue, I'm fine with people taking in all my freaktastic glory in a non-obvious, non-threatening way (we're a highly visual species, and in addition to the hair and whatnot I'm extremely tall...I realize I stand out) but I'm not fine with prolonged staring or pointed comments.
It's "how dare he/she hit on me; don't they know they're old/fat/ugly?"
ReplyDeleteI think that's mostly a young-people thing. I reacted like that when I was a teenager, but now I consider it flattering if anyone hits on me - as long as they do it right. Can't blame a dude for trying; for all he knows I do like guys who are old/fat/whatever.
Jfpbookworm - I try not to be offended if someone I don't find attractive expresses interest, as long as they do so appropriately.
ReplyDeleteThe single most important distinction here is between "Hi, my name is JFP and I just wanted to tell you that you're very pretty," and "Why doncha come over here and sit on my lap, little lady?" If those two very different things are conflated as "attention", every other discussion about how women react to attention or whether women invite attention becomes hopelessly bifurcated. Women are arguing why they don't want to sit on your lap and men are hearing that we don't want you to say hi.
That said, some women are jerks about appropriate-attention from undesirable dudes, but I try really hard not to be one of them.
It's not necessarily for "attention" (or at least not "attention" from everyone...). I'm tattooed and have partly-shaved, partly-technicolour hair for the same reason most people make their particular fashion choices: self-expression. I feel more like MYSELF this way. If nobody ever again asked me about my tattoos or told me "OMG your hair is so bright!" that would be just fine. I don't hate people's interest in my peculiar fashion choices but I don't thrive on it, either.
ReplyDeleteThis. I'm getting to be pretty heavily inked at this point, and none of it shows in normal street clothes because I really and truly do not want the extra attention. They're for me. People that insist "getting attention" is the only reason people get tattooed burn me up.
"hello, pardon me but you're very beautiful, would you like to get a drink sometime"
ReplyDeleteI have always figured that it is pretty creepy if the first thing you say to a woman you have never met before refers to her looks.
Comrade PhysioProf - It is awkward, because the real "right" thing to do is to start an actual conversation, but it's not bad. (I'm an awkward person and thus not always capable of writing dialogue for non-awkward characters.) I think that the phrasing is clearly well-intentioned, if inelegant.
ReplyDeleteI just hope I don't come off as creepy to women. I'm all self conscious like that. I think it's why I have a hard time talking to women.
ReplyDeleteI read something like this and I think, "Wow, I hope I've n ever inspired those kinds of thoughts/feelings." But that's my hang up, and you have every right to speak up up about being creeped out by the creepy dudes. It just sucks that there are, or seem to be, so many of the assholes out there.
Somehow this reminds me of this one time when I was a lot younger when I was told by someone else that some woman had complained that I had been following her everywhere and "hovering around" in a "creepy manner". Assuming that this was a real complaint, it was probably a coincidence; I was hanging around a few people who I specifically knew by name, but she wasn't one of them - it was someone I barely even noticed at the time. So apparently you can't avoid offending everyone even if you're trying not to.
ReplyDeleteI have always figured that it is pretty creepy if the first thing you say to a woman you have never met before refers to her looks.
ReplyDeleteI imagine it would be far, far creepier if a stranger's pickup line was about something else. ("Hello, I saw through my telephoto lens that you like to watch infomercials at 4am. Me too! We have so much in common!")
My way of hitting on dudes back when I was single (and the way I wish they'd hit on me) is by going up to them, delivering a compliment, and then going away. I don't try to ask for a date because that's putting my ego on the line way too much and maybe putting too much uncomfortable pressure on the guy. I figure I've opened up a chance for conversation; if he wants it, he'll take it by saying something more then "Um, thanks" back to me. Worst case scenario, I've just brightened someone's day with a random compliment and vanished into the night like a COMPLIMENT NINJA!!!
*more THAN.
ReplyDeleteNot Me said...
ReplyDeleteSomehow this reminds me of this one time when I was a lot younger when I was told by someone else that some woman had complained that I had been following her everywhere and "hovering around" in a "creepy manner". Assuming that this was a real complaint, it was probably a coincidence; I was hanging around a few people who I specifically knew by name, but she wasn't one of them - it was someone I barely even noticed at the time. So apparently you can't avoid offending everyone even if you're trying not to.
Yea Verily, Not Me!
I was with my two friends toying with the idea of going swimming, someone at the pay telephones told me to quit following them.
"Lady, and I use the term very loosely. I wasn't even aware of your existence, until you so rudely brought it to my attention. Now if you will never speak to me again, I'll return to that state of blissful ignorance."
Rude? Yes! but then so was she.
then some bimp, "Whadda you looking at?"
"I dunno, I left Brownes Guide to Extra-Terrestrials at home!"
or
"Hell, if you don't know, how am I supposed to?"
Yes, I'm Evil!
but if someone tries to take a swipe at my self esteem or self respect, I am prepared to hand them back their head.
As Holly said, it's not as if they are going to be talked around once they make their minds up about you.
maybe she doesn't want attention at all. Maybe she just wants to look nice to feel good about herself, in a way that isn't entirely sexual. Looking "good" and looking "sexy" have a lot of overlap for women, and an outfit that to her says "I'm going to look casual but fashionable, I take pride in my appearance" almost always ends up showing a bit of skin.
ReplyDeleteOn top of which, I suspect that while my definition of "sexy" overlaps significantly with the standard definition -- and therefore at least somewhat with most individuals' respective definitions -- it's not identical to it, nor, probably, with any one person's. So the fact that I find that someone is dressed sexy doesn't mean she intended to dress sexy at all, let alone that she intended to attract my personal attention.
Tangentially, a man should err on the side of not hitting on a woman who isn't doing something she would be unlikely to do if she weren't, at that moment, looking for a man with whom she can have a sexual and/or romantic relationship. This is part of not being creepy -- behavior that's perfectly appropriate when a woman is at a party looking to hook up with someone is creepy when she's at the ATM.
So apparently you can't avoid offending everyone even if you're trying not to.
That's the flipside of "you can't avoid being sexy to anyone even if you're not trying to."
if someone tries to take a swipe at my self esteem
How is "please stop following me" a swipe at your self-esteem?
Another thing to keep in mind is that social interactions do not occur in a vacuum, the person you're talking to/hitting on/complimenting is going to respond differently based on their own personal history.
ReplyDeleteIf a woman has been followed or stalked before, she's going to be pretty sensitive to that sort of thing, and maybe end up making unfair assumptions about your behaviour. The same way being mugged in an alleyway last week is going to make the biker gang who just happen to be walking in the same direction as you for five blocks seem a lot more threatening than they might otherwise.
That's the flipside of "you can't avoid being sexy to anyone even if you're not trying to."
ReplyDelete"I am someone's fetish."
John B - I don't think this is the sort of blog where we use the word "bimp."
ReplyDeleteAlso, you've creeped me out multiple times just on this blog, so shit, I don't know how much benefit of the doubt to give you. I've gotten the "ha ha, you thought I was following you, you should be so lucky you ugly bimp" speech too, you know.
Also, you totally wrote those comebacks after the fact and in the moment it was more like "uh, uh... nuh uhhhhh... bitch!"
Actually, I don't even like the "nice" or "acceptable" forms of attention that you're listing (with the understanding, of course, that this is all on a very personal spectrum of what's acceptable behavior). I dislike that women are fair game for having their attractiveness critiqued or approved of, and I equally don't want to know if a man likes or dislikes how I look today.
ReplyDeleteIn the same vein, men often say hi to me when they wouldn't to another man, just so that they can get a hi or a smile in response. I'm not a hi/smile machine, and I love, LOVE, LOVE anonymity and walking unnoticed down the street.
99% of the time I just don't want it, complimentary or not, "acceptable level of attention" or not.
seitzk - I wouldn't like to be invisible, and as long as people are polite and appropriate and don't demand anything of me, I'll take a compliment.
ReplyDeleteseitzk, I don't get the impression Holly is saying women are fair game; my understanding of her point is that anyone of any perceived gender is being unreasonable if they expect to go out in public and not inspire any opinions of their appearance.
ReplyDeleteThough it's never wrong to keep said opinion to oneself, of course.
John B - I don't think this is the sort of blog where we use the word "bimp."
ReplyDelete...Is that because it doesn't mean anything?
Seriously, even Urban Dictionary didn't come up with anything that would have been even vaguely appropriate in that context.
<- confused
Darn all this new fangled internet language anyway!
I had a really nice, uncreepy sidewalk "Compliment Ninja" [love that, perversecowgirl!] moment this morning. Totally non-harassy and left me smiling. It went something like:
ReplyDelete"Morning, sugar!
... Man, you are CUTE! You got a boyfriend?
... Well, I'm jealous, baby."
It was all delivered very cheerfully and non-creepily. We both kept walking, in opposite directions; all I did was smile and nod. (And nod more vigorously at the boyfriend question.) The "I'm jealous, baby" line was delivered just as pleasantly as the rest of it. It made me think that he actually did think I was cute, as opposed to just wanting to force some kind of reaction out of me.
flightless
perversecowgirl,
ReplyDelete"Worst case scenario, I've just brightened someone's day with a random compliment and vanished into the night like a COMPLIMENT NINJA!!!"
Can I take a moment to say how frickin' awesome this was? :D
@perlhaqr: I've never heard of that either, but the moment I read it I assumed it was meant as a cross of either "bimbo" or "bint" with "simp" (itself being a shortening of "simpleton", used in a derogatory manner much like "retard").
ReplyDelete@Holly - I hope I didn't come off as criticizing your stance. I just wanted to give my perspective as someone whose tolerance for attention on the street is at a different place.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that women are more often fair game to be complimented/criticized on the street, and that makes even innocuously stated compliments from men annoying to me as manifestations of their perceived right to do so.