Sunday, August 1, 2010

A brief glossary of PUA terminology.

For future reference and current amusement.

PUA: Pick-Up Artist. A man who believes that fucking and (to a lesser extent) forming relationships with women is a matter of outsmarting and manipulating the women in very specific ways. The basic premise is that your behavior affects whether you get laid, which is obviously true--but the behaviors they recommend adopting, and the mental framework they use to justify these behaviors, range from absurd to horrifying. PUA also refers to the activity of Pick-Up Artistry, also called "Game" or "sarging."

1-10 scale: This is how women are rated. Despite the fact that it's called a "scale," it consists almost entirely of 1-3, which are hilariously monstrous, and 7-9, which are hottie supermodel beach babes like in Daddy's secret magazines. This scale is absolutely objective and entirely physical, and to suggest otherwise would be laughably Beta. (10 is customarily not awarded, as to do so would imply that you had lost your manly objectivity and discernment.) A woman in the upper range may also be an "HB"--"Hot Babe"--or ranked as HB8, HB9 etcetera.

Alpha/Beta: This is how men are rated. Betas represent 80% of all men and cannot get laid ever. Weirdly, this is generally held against women even by purported Alphas, as if it's really unfair and cruel of women to be more attracted to men who are more attractive. A man's Alpha/Beta status is almost entirely determined by his behavior--an Alpha is high in "status" and a demanding, demeaning asshole. A Beta may also be known as an "AFC": "Average Frustrated Chump," the specific implication being that the average non-PUA man on the street has never even heard a description of a vagina. Or a Beta may be a "Nice Guy," because being good and kind to humans is like being allergic to pussy.

(Note that the idea that "no Alpha would want anything less than a 7" and the idea "all the women are sleeping with Alphas" coexist quite comfortably.)

Approach: The only way to meet a woman is to come up to a complete stranger at a bar with a prefab opening line. This is the only way. It is within the bounds of possibility that you'd be at a club or maybe even a house party, but that's as far as it goes.

Close: This is how you win the game. Ideally it means you have sex, but getting a phone number or a kiss are also "closes" of some sort. There's even a "name close" for the truly desperate. I'm Holly, you win, congratulations, now go home.

Friend Zone: If closing is a man's goal in the game, friendzoning is the woman's goal. Women do not want, initially, to date or fuck men--they want to be "friends" which means that they will assert their dominance by continually not fucking you. Not-fucking a man is the cruelest thing a woman can do without using a chainsaw, and for that reason women love to do it. Rumors that friends engage in any activities or relationship dynamics other than not-fucking are completely worthless propaganda spread by feminazis.

Neg: This is probably the most famous PUA technique. You tell a stuck-up hot bitch that she ain't all that, so she'll fuck you to prove that she is all that. There are many related techniques that have their own stupid names, but all basically come down to withholding your affection so that the woman will jump all over you to get some of it.

Is this unkind or manipulative, or does it deliberately select for women with terrible self-esteem and the intelligence of a damp rock? Yes. Yes it is and it does. But hey, denying men sex, that's what's really unkind here. All this shit wouldn't be necessary if women would just be reasonable and have sex with literally every and any guy who asked. Or who didn't ask but wanted to.

Cocky and Funny: This is the attitude a PUA is supposed to project, and for once I don't have anything really bad to say about it, because I do like guys who are cocky and funny. Although when attempted by guys who have absolutely no internal confidence or sense of humor, it often turns into "Arrogant and Cheesy."

Kino: To touch a woman you're picking up in a totally natural and subtle and not creepy at all way. For example, you could just naturally happen to run your hand through her hair or rest your hand on her leg, the way normal people always do during normal conversation.

DHV: Demonstration of Higher Value. Talking about how super special and important you are and how in-demand your cock is. And if that works, you might as well tell her that "gullible" is written on your dick and see where that leads.

IOI: Indication Of Interest. (Also "DOI" for "Demonstration" or SOI for "Signs" or whatever.) This is how a woman shows you she's interested: by making eye contact, smiling, laughing at your jokes, talking to you, or acknowledging your existence in any way. Latch onto any IOI like a lamprey and refuse to be shaken off until you've sucked all her fish guts out.

Shit Test: When a woman insults you or tells you "no," she is testing how you'll react. It never ever means she actually doesn't like you. The way to pass the shit test is to sarge right ahead and show her that her little tricks don't fool you, you know she wants you.

If a woman asks you for any kind of favor, this is also a shit test--if you do anything for her, she'll see you as submissive and never fuck you. Therefore, if a woman says "could you watch my bag?" or "could you get me a drink while you're up?", the only correct answer is "HAHA NO WAY BITCH I'M ON TO YOUR LITTLE GAME." She'll love it.

Bitch Shield: Basically the same thing as the first type of shit test, this is where a woman acts deliberately unfriendly to get rid of you. As with shit tests, this just means you need to try even harder. Women don't get to just say no to your attention like they're in control of the whole world or something.

Anti-Slut Defense: One possible reason a woman might say "no" to you, other than game-playing or sheer insanity, is that she doesn't want to seem like a slut. Yeah, that must be why she doesn't want to fuck you, that's the only explanation that makes sense.

Peacocking: Wearing fucking ridiculous clothing.


  1. Anti-Slut Defense: One possible reason a woman might say "no" to you, other than game-playing or sheer insanity, is that she doesn't want to seem like a slut. Yeah, that must be why she doesn't want to fuck you, that's the only explanation that makes sense.

    Sometimes, though, this is absolutely true. PUAs think of sex as this "prize" they have to win, and if it's just given to them, well, that's highly suspicious and obviously means the woman is a great big whore.

    So even if I think a guy is super-hot and interesting, if I get the vibe that he's trying to "win" sex from me I'll stay the hell away. I like casual sex, but I like it to be ongoing; I don't need the bullshit of sleeping with a guy who won't sleep with me again because I slept with him too soon.


  2. Holly said...

    Friend Zone: If closing is a man's goal in the game, friendzoning is the woman's goal. Women do not want, initially, to date or fuck men--they want to be "friends" which means that they will assert their dominance by continually not fucking you. Not-fucking a man is the cruelest thing a woman can do without using a chainsaw, and for that reason women love to do it. Rumors that friends engage in any activities or relationship dynamics other than not-fucking are completely worthless propaganda spread by feminazis."

    Wow. When I showed up in Davis Square on a Friday night a couple months ago, all I really wanted was to friendzone you (or better yet, spend an evening better determining if you were someone I wanted to friendzone, and someone who wanted to friendzone me). Jesus. I am SUCH a loser at this, it's amazing that I haven't been set adrift on an Ice Floe Of Total And Utter Male Loserdom in The Sea Of Not Having Games by all The Guys In The Know in the world. How have I made it to age 39 and not been executed for being such a loser of the male world?

    Goddamnit. I should've known you were shit-testing me when you asked me to pass the mayonnaise. TWICE. grumblegrumblegrumble.

  3. Where does the "Probably a lesbian shield" fit into PUA? When I was a kid, we assumed we weren't getting laid because we were hopeless nerds (that wasn't cool then.)

    But dude, seriously, nobody uses mayonnaise twice.

  4. One more thing: if they're capitalizing "Nice Guy," they're probably appropriating an actual concept developed by someone else without understanding it. The concept of the "Nice Guy" as described by Dr. Robert Glover is that there are many men out there who constantly help and serve others, rarely or never saying no to anything. However, the ones described as "Nice Guys" are not necessarily "nice guys," if you take my meaning. They're submissive and manipulative, and having never learned to ask for, demand, or create the attention, affection and rewards they want, they resort to a sort of covert contract. If they do "A" for you, you are obligated to do "B" for them, even though you haven't been told about this, much less given a chance to agree.

    The classic male friend who gets walked all over by the girl he secretly wants for years while she dates "jerks" is likely a "Nice Guy."

    For that matter, from your description, it sounds like a lot of members of the PUA fraternity would be considered Nice Guys if they ever met Dr. Glover, too.

    Anyway, the solution to being a Nice Guy is not to be a jerk or try to manipulate people in a different way. The basic trait of the Nice Guy is his dishonesty; he's not willing to stand up for himself or express his desires honestly, so he does the furtive contracts and seethes in anger instead. The solution, then, is to be honest--and telling a girl she's ugly, then protesting that you're "just being honest" as a cover for being a dick, doesn't count as honesty.

  5. @Holly:

    I'd say you were making all this up, if I hadn't seen everything you described in action myself. I know it sounds crazy, but there really are people (and I use the term loosely) who think this way.

    To prove it, Google the following search term (without quotes): Starbuck lost in castration; click the first link; prepare to rage.

    It's an article by Dirk Benedict (who played Starbuck in the original Battlestar Galactica) that basically demonstrates a lot of what Holly describes (and worse things). If you hate me for it later, I understand.

  6. DHV-- somehow transforming the concept of "people like interesting and cool people who have done awesome things" into a horribly misogynistic and objectifying idea.

    Also, all women clearly like any DHV the same. Military general is the same as pro-peace activist is the same as rock-band guitarist is the same as having swum the Amazon River is the same as being Richard Feynman is the same as being a complete asshole.

    And men definitely never want to date cool people. It's all about the numerical value for men. Any true man would rather date an asshole 8.9 who has never thought about anything other than her hair than a sweet 8.8 gourmet chef who rescues puppies from burning buildings and solves serial-killer cases for the FBI in her spare time.

  7. @ozy -

    "is the same as being Richard Feynman"


    Richard Feynman never had Game. As someone who actually did something useful with his life, and treated women as people, he was obviously a Beta.

    Hence, he cannot be used as a DHV, only as an example of one of the most awe-inspiring trolls and pranksters who ever casually cracked safes in a top-secret facility.

  8. Aaron-- Richard Feynman is such an alpha he doesn't need Game. He alpha-male-other-guy'd the entire universe. The man sarged the laws of physics, dodged every shit-test quantum mechanics had to offer and when math tried to friendzone him negged it until it begged for mercy. He didn't die; he simply accepted Death's IOIs and went for an epic fuck-close.

    However, given the audience of PUA, the example of "being Richard Feynman" is withdrawn and replaced with "badly pretending to be Richard Feynman, to an audience of girls who are laughing behind their hands at you."

  9. Hey, if it means that there are more people out there marching around trees while playing the bongos, I'm all for it.

  10. Latch onto any IOI like a lamprey and refuse to be shaken off until you've sucked all her fish guts out.

    This is a beautiful example of why I love Holly's writing.

  11. ozy -

    Thank you for the amendment, and beautifully said. That gave me a good laugh.

  12. Uh... Feynman absolutely did this stuff. He talks about it in his autobiography. He was legitimately awesome, but he practiced "neg hitting" or whatever, combined with "so, are you going to sleep with me tonight?" somewhere in the first 20 minutes.

    Holly - there's a PUA term for my natural dressing habits?

  13. See, anon backs me up, 'being Richard Feynman' is totally a DHV.

    Anon-- Depends. Do your dressing habits generally involve dressing like a demented aspiring stage magician let loose in a Hot Topic by some unaccountable negligence?

  14. Ozymandias - That was beautiful.

    Anon - Richard Feynman gets a free pass for being Richard Feynman. If any other PUAs can prove that they are Richard Feynman, they too can enjoy a free pass.

  15. Wait, do PUA people consider "peacocking" a good thing or a bad thing?

    Also, I read the Dirk Benedict blog piece and didn't find much that applied to PUA or the larger them of desperate men with a commodity view of sex. I suppose Holly might take issue with some of his bitterness over feminism, but that's about it.

  16. PUA people consider peacocking a good thing. The idea is that it's like a peacock's feathers: if you're hot dressed up like a complete tosser, imagine how hot you must be dressed like a normal person! Like most pieces of PUA advice, it makes perfect sense in Bizzaro World.

  17. Um, y'know, that's actually a pretty accurate survey of what I actually believe, so, um, yeah. I'm quite a bit less rapey than the model implies, but, yeah. PUA took me from 1 date for 300 conversations with women to 1:100 and then 1:50, which meant I went from 1 date/year to 1 date/quarter to 1 date/week. Of course my model is more Juggler than Mystery, so my approach is "softer" and much less effective than most, but the hardest of the hard-core, Paul Janka, averages about 1 in 10. People think cruelty=effectiveness and it's not true.

  18. Strangely, peacocking as an attention-getter makes total sense to me. Back in the day, I always noticed guys wearing hats and riduculous getups were instant conversations starters. Dude could still prove to be a douchebag, but he would get talked to by my friend group.

    Funny thing is: even when I was going out all the time, I never went home with guys (my group had a strict policy of "came here with me, leaving with me"). Friend Zone was my happy hunting ground for sex and eventually my husband.

  19. Anon - The Dirk Benedict piece had a lot of him being a pissypants whiner that there were icky girls in his clubhouse, but I didn't see any reference to PUA.

    Eurosabra - You never sound like someone who goes on one date a week. (And you'd think that after a while of that you might actually settle down? A little?) Also, no one has 300 conversations with strangers. 300 approaches is possible but psychotic; 300 conversations is not.

  20. Well, physically, my capacity to DO approaches has flagged with my health a bit, I'm not the machine I used to be. And 300 conversations in the course of a year just means being an extrovert in an urban area. My success, such as it is, is not enough to assuage my anger--and this has been pointed out to me by other PUAs.

  21. "My success, such as it is, is not enough to assuage my anger"

    the hell?

  22. He means he has issues with the universe in general and women in particular and occasionally obliquely acknowledges this rather than lecturing us about our collective delusion that treating each other like human beings with similar wants and needs gets us anywhere but celibate loneliness except by extraordinary coincidence or the convergence of two ugly people with issues.

    I was going to be much snarkier than this, but I really am starting to genuinely wonder why he thinks he needs yet more meaningless sex with women he despises instead of therapy.

  23. Eurosabra, I'm a guy with a probably above-average sex drive, and a definitely higher-than-normal testosterone level. I'm glad that I'm staying friends with my soon-to-be-ex wife but the relationship is certainly not one to allow sex. I can't have sex with anyone else, either, as a married Christian. I haven't had sex since February and I don't plan to until I remarry, which is not going to be soon. This doesn't make me happy, but it doesn't make me angry either. It's like a livable diet not like actual starvation. Lots of sex is great, but it wouldn't cure your anger; the girls would be be too low a number, or not kinky enough, or something.

    In PUA you pretend not to be desperate, because that's not an attractive trait. Deep down most people know that a person miserable without sex is still going to be miserable with it, that's why they stay away. Learn to live up to the image you're trying to project.

  24. "Strangely, peacocking as an attention-getter makes total sense to me."

    It's probably more effective on the wearer than the intended audience, if done right. Anybody who dresses like a circus clown and still attempts to mingle in normal society has got to ramp up their self-confidence to a degree that's probably noticeable from across the room, let alone two barstools over.

  25. I gotta say I find peacocking totally unobjectionable. Not arguing with any of the previous comments, and I'm not the type to do it myself, but hey! You wanna dress up to stand out, that's great! And if lots of people think you look like a clown and you think you look awesome, more power to you, especially if you can find someone else who thinks you look awesome!

    I have a great friend who leaves sparkles everywhere she goes because she dusts them lightly in her hair. She looks great, and anyone who complains is just jealous.

  26. LabRat,

    Therapy not covered by my (lack of) health insurance, and it didn't help even when I had it.


    Eunuch for the sake of heaven? Not to snark about your choice, but if your sexuality exists solely within a religious framework, as a former member of an extremist Orthodox Jewish group, I can empathize a bit. "In God's image" means that certain things should not be done, to oneself, to others, ever, period. And if you are living a strict Paulian/Paulist(?English fail) concept of sexuality, more power to you. I suppose I am more lonely than anything else, but with sexuality defined in a religious context, most of the denizens of this comment section are horrible sinners. And saying I don't actively harm others seems too little, because of the snark aimed at PUA. You'll have to take my word for it that I walk away rather than push, that I fail more quietly than almost any other PUA, and that local circles decline to "sarge" with me because I am too "soft." I do a lot of Tai Chi and Kabbalistic meditation, and I try to correct (mainly in vain) the energy I am sending out into the world. Sorry if this is a bit too New Agey. Thomas Macaulay Miller had a great post on Yes Means Yes blog entitled "Tracking Shit on the Carpet" which was about non-consent and creeping at (relatively open to the) public play parties, I recommend it. (I've always been a cipher at the BDSM clubs in Tel Aviv, an observer, a totally infrequent one at that.)

  27. This comment has been removed by the author.

  28. Hi Holly :) I'm a .. well not long time fan, but a recent fan (turned on by a super great friend who IS apparently a long time reader) who enjoys reading and reading back on your blog :D I love your Cosmocking stuff and the PUA takedown stuff cuz omfg is that scary :o And I wasn't rly aware that much of the PUA stuff, until I saw the stuff about it on your blog, but I've experienced it irl SO MUCH and when I see this, like.. it explains a lot... or at least it explains the consistency of the way a lot of random strange guys hit on me >:|

    And not everybody who tries to flirt with me is a PUA (and I would barely consider the PUA stuff flirting, cuz I certainly don't feel flirted with in the least >_<;;; like how I don't consider tackling me a hug, even if the person doing it thinks it is) before nebody thinks that I can't tell the difference.

    And I think that's the thing that these PUA ppls dun get... I CAN tell the difference! >:O What's so frustrating about is that they act like we're NPCs or animals or something.. sure we have natural programmed defense mechanisms, sure we may be difficult to "catch" but ultimately we simply react to stimuli, and they know they're smarter than us... except I'm NOT a rabbit! I don't follow these ridic PUA rules, and I don't do stuff just cuz it's my natural instinctive defense mechanism to "shit test" or w/e (these terms are ridic hilarious now that i know of them xD we rly are animals to them).

    But even if I didn't know there was some sort of Hooked on Phonics sort of program they all followed... I can tell what they're trying to do and how clumsily awful they're doing it and how LITTLE they think of me >:O And that is the problem with this whole PUA thing >:| they say this is a "game", but they don't see it as a game between 2 human players but between them and a computer or them and a rabbit they're hunting >:|
    and when you treat me like that, I CAN TELL, and I think it's disgusting and gross and therefore YOU ARE DISGUSTING AND GROSS!

    And it's even more so now that I know there's apparently some sort of... I dunno cult? religion? something around it all... >_<;; Like I always kinda knew there was, I just didn't know there were all these terms and.. sites where they let out their anger and hatred for women and bitterness.. it's just... SCARY..

    also I wonder about the "I have a billion convos with ppl" thing cuz.. suddenly it makes me wonder.. do all the guys who hit on me think what happened was a conversation? >_<;;; cuz i tend to think a conversation is something that requires both ppl wanting to engage in it >:|

    And the thing is, like, I totally agree with what you said about funny and cocky too! I LIKE funny and confident.. just like... REAL funny and REAL confident.. where that's YOU... and not... some thing you're forcing b/c your book on tape told you to >:|

    Anyways.. I know that was a bit of an angry rant... it's just when I saw all the terms and everything laid out it really put into context a lot of the really awful and creepy experiences I've had of strangers who just approach me and just.. I really enjoy your blog and your posts and esp your Cosmocking and stuff :D And you even manage to make stuff that's horribly disgusting (and frightening) like the Misandry Bubble or a lot of this PUA stuff and make it hilarious with your commentary, and since this post struck something in me, I wanted to comment and tell you that :D

    (sry for the delete, my friend informed me I was repeating myself :( )

  29. Eurosabra, read my comment again and find the part where I suggested abstinence, or less sex, to you. It ain't there. It must have been there if I'm a Christian? It's not. What did I say about sex? "Lots of sex is great". I brought up my abstinence because if I don't have to be miserable and angry with no sex, you don't have to be miserable and angry with some. Actually I'm sure that you'll get more if you can be a happy person, because suddenly a lot of parts of the image you are projecting will be reality, and thus more convincing. If you think getting some is great, but not getting any this time is also just fine, it will be a lot easier to be cocky and funny.

    Of course trying to accept not enough sex for the sake of getting more is impossible; you'll have to accept it for the sake of being happy with the world.

  30. but with sexuality defined in a religious context, most of the denizens of this comment section are horrible sinners.

    I don't know how extreme your Orthodox Jewish group was, but let's just say you didn't use light switches between Friday and Saturday sunsets. Did you think Christians were horrible sinners because they did? I hope not. You presumably would have thought they just do that because they don't know. Using a lightswitch Friday night is not something where you naturally see harm to someone, not a result of thoughtlessness or carelessness or wilful ignorance. It's something you didn't do because of what you considered a divine command; if you didn't have reason to believe that command, you wouldn't have obeyed it either.

    That's how I feel about Christian sex. It's something I do because I think I've been so commanded by a being who knows better than me, in a way that is not obviously convincing to others in modern Western culture. Not something where anyone just sees harm and wrongness. It doesn't make sense to judge others for not obeying that.

    Something I think is a real horrible sin is that I did not show enough love to my wife, and that was the biggest part of why she left me. That was a failure in me to obey stated commandments that I believe ("Husbands, love your wives"), AND a failure to obey the conscience and natural law that showed me I should love her. I shouldn't even need an explicit command for that, and I got one, and still failed.

    P.S. "Pauline".

  31. Hershele OstropolerAugust 3, 2010 at 6:50 PM

    After all these years (I discussed this, though not with Eurosabra, as far back as 2006) the word "success" in this context still bothers me. It's transactional, I guess, I forget the exact jargon; basically, it seems to suggest something other than a mutually fulfilling if potentially very brief or highly focused encounter.

  32. Hole-y is a Butt SlutAugust 3, 2010 at 11:13 PM

    Butt Slut,

    Read this :

    How feminists encourage violence against women.

    People like you and Twisty Faster (ideological twins) have much to learn. Feminism hurts women, and should be stopped.

  33. You've got it wrong, broski; you're Butt-Slut, she's Hole-y.

    Can't believe trolls nowadays. So incompetent and moronic, they can't even get names straight. Why, back in my day... *mutter mutter*

  34. Well, I am working on a since-February dry spell, mainly from social and geographical inconveniences resulting from a death in the family, but that doesn't alter the fact that "gatekeeping" behavior and Bruno-described online anomie are the roots of the problem.

    Still working on being a happy person.

  35. Butt-Slut: Aren't you in favor of violence against women, though? So we're on the same side after all!

    Eurosabra - Oh, so that's not exactly once a week, is it? (Maybe maybe just maybe PUA doesn't work so well?) Also, dammit, I'll keep my damn gate; the alternative of just leaving it open is rather unpleasant.

  36. Guys: if you want women to stop being "gatekeepers" then STOP CHARGING OUR GATES. It makes us reflexively clamp up in self-defense.


  37. Mousie00: "In PUA you pretend not to be desperate, because that's not an attractive trait."

    Ah, but that's just one of the unattractive traits you pretend not to have! You also pretend you're not boring, shallow, creepy, and contemptuous of women.

    (Warning: terribly earnest and didactic wall of text follows.)

    Boring is, I suspect, the big one. When you've rebuilt yourself into a machine for picking up women, what's left of you to have a relationship with? Suppose the conversation goes well and she wants to see you again some time. "Are you free this Saturday?" "Sorry, I'm going to a conference on how to pick up women. I'm giving a talk on that thing I just did where I commented disparagingly on your shoes. Maybe next weekend?" I guess that's fine if your goal really is to have sex with lots of women and then completely forget they exist, but the world would be a better place if you castrated yourself and then picked pretty much any other goal.

    And the reason PUA makes me angry (rather than just vaguely amused at the stupidity) is that it steers men toward that goal. There was a time in my life when I was exactly the kind of idiot who would get into it, if I'd encountered it--like many young nerds, I thought there was a trick to attracting a woman's interest, and all the Average Guys with Girlfriends have figured out the trick.* PUA promises the trick, and then delivers a set of confidence games built on the notion that women are basically interchangeable. You want to get together with Sarah, the cute girl in your physiology class, but don't know what to say? Here's what you do: Forget her. Go down to a noisy, smoky club and try this routine on fifty different women. Most of them will ignore you, because they're bitches and rejecting men is their greatest pleasure in life. The next day, try it again. Keep trying until you find a bitch desperate enough to sleep with you. That's your social life now.

    And it turned out that the reason I didn't have a girlfriend was that I didn't know how to relate to other humans. Not "how to approach them", but how to care about them. If I'd had PUA bullshit as a distraction, I'd still be there. Instead, I learned to be a marginally less terrible person.

    * Or were told the trick, and sworn to secrecy, on the day in high school when we were at Academic Decathlon.

    tl;dr version: PUA is for guys who can't get a date because they suck, but don't want to give up sucking.

  38. PUA doesn't "work", nothing "works", straight men really can't exercise sexual agency in this culture without money, power, looks, inborn charisma or learned social skill. Average Guy With A Girlfriend is polling the 300-500+ women in his broad social circle (an entire college "Class Of" cohort, for example) for a period of years, until he finds ONE. The reason I am not off in MRA-rape advocacy land like Eivind "Arpagus" Berge is that I always lived around women during the ultimate dry spell I (1989-98) and I was sufficiently ADD and socially extroverted that living in Europe/Israel meant always going to exciting new places (Bomb threats! Real bombs! Charging bulls!) with awesome new people, some of whom were women and of those 2 or 3 I might have dated. Graduate school and boring adult life is what made me a grump. And Yahoo Personals and JDate.

    I've always been somewhat relate-able, it's just that the fading of social situations where people were FORCED to interact (dorms, etc) threw me back on the problem of being a man in this (urban Jewish) culture, where (in New York/Princeton/Tel Aviv/Jerusalem/LA) women are mainly interested in what you can do for them, meaning that the alpha-beta sorting is perfect. Every Jewish woman I've dated has also been educated, sometimes disabled, often fat, often underemployed, messy, a good cook, into classical music. PUA changed me enough that I could date, that I could date a broader range of women, and gave me enough success that I could avoid "But I WANNA" as a rationale for bad behavior.

  39. @eurosabra
    Where's this Tel-Aviv BDSM club you mention (I'm visiting Tel-Aviv for another month and am curious.)

  40. Dungeon, Kikar Kedumim, Old Jaffa. Owned by a nice middle-aged guy named Amos. Standard newcomer rules apply, I basically got to hang out and meet everyone but I was suggested (and most comfortable with) a temporary no-touch policy.

  41. Whatever just happened to being friendly, respectful, flirty and a bit cheeky? Comes naturally, and I'm very happy with how I've always done!

  42. Hershele OstropolerAugust 8, 2010 at 7:14 PM

    Jake, that just makes you a jerk. Women like flowers and candlelight dinners! All of them! All the time! And nothing else!

  43. I so don't get this crazy moon language...

  44. *straight men really can't exercise sexual agency in this culture without money, power, looks, inborn charisma or learned social skill.*

    Wow, you have it so much harder than the rest of us, who totally can do whatever we want, especially sexually! without the benefit of any of those things.

    p.s. "learned social skills" are a good thing, you know?

  45. Lol, pickup has some weird stuff about it, but on the whole it's a positive thing, and the goal for the members involved in it is self-improvement.

    Regarding the terminology you picked:

    PUA: PUA is a normative term used to describe a student of seduction. Some PUA's disdain the term, since it is a title based on the reactions of women, and your true worth comes from within.

    1-10 Scale: This may seem misogynistic, but this scale has nothing at all to do with pickup. EVERY guy rates girls, PUA or not.

    Alpha/Beta: Your argument is a strawman. Everyone knows that "Betas" get laid too, but as a matter of undisputable fact, "Alphas" get laid with better quality women.

    Approach: Looks like you've heard of opinion openers. There are other kinds, like direct openers (stating that you find the woman interesting), and situational ones (commenting on the situation), but whatever.

    Close: A # close is getting the number, a K-close is getting a kiss, I don't see anything weird about this.

    Friend-Zone: Actually, PUA's know that every woman dreams of scoring a high-caliber man. But anyways, this term has nothing to do with pickup. It has to do with a man who failed to build enough attraction with a woman, so the woman disqualified him as a suitor, but wants to keep him around for favors.

    Neg: Negs are playful disses or backhanded compliments. They won't work if you're obvious about them.

    What saddens me most about pickup is the guys that claim that it will eliminate rejection, or let you routinely fuck 9s and 10s. It won't. What it can do is help you get and keep girls somewhat more attractive than the ones you've been seeing, like getting 7s instead of 5s.

  46. Belledame: LOL. Of course you can. And somehow social skills other than pick-up have never gotten me laid.

  47. Anon - It's just weird for me because all my friends are people. I have to get along with them and stuff. And call me a vagina-afflicted little Pollyana, but I don't think I could line my friends up in order of "quality." That's like asking if a candy bar is better or worse than an alarm clock. There's too many variables and it depends what you're looking for.

  48. I think it's pretty apparent that PUA "quality" like PUA "difficulty level" means "mainstream physical attractiveness." In particular, some men come to PUA because they can consistently get NON-physical qualities in their partners but physical appearance brings in the issue of "leagues" and "hot chick behaviors" and for whatever reason "smart thin conventionally attractive woman" is infinitely harder to pick up at every stage than "smart woman." PUA promises "attractive" women, it's more accurate to say "women who have always heard from others that they are pretty and behave accordingly."

  49. You guys are correct that PUA's train people to (try to) get women that are considered physically attractive by mainstream society. But actually, most people come to pickup for a variety of reasons, such as:

    1) They can score 7s, but want to score 9s and 10s (these guys are pretty rare, and probably the ones who will shell out a couple grand for a ridiculously overpriced "bootcamp").

    2) They have had a limited sexual history, and want more options (fairly common).

    3) They have NO sexual history, because they never "got it" in high school (also somewhat common).

    4) They want a good wingman to go clubbing with.

    As for why PUA's exist to begin with, there are a number of hypotheses.

    1) Since women (and men, but that's less important) have started becoming more obese, the gender ratios of modern society have become artificially skewed, thus forcing men to learn game in order to score higher quality women. Probably Roissy was the first to posit this hypothesis.

    2) Due to changing gender roles in society, traits such as a money and a stable income are no longer considered attractive, thus forcing men to learn game. Many PUA's hold this view.

    3) The ideas that a man is taught in childhood about how to attract women: that he is supposed to supplicate to a woman, buy her stuff, be her shoulder to cry on, etc, fails as a model of seduction. What happens is that the woman uses the man for emotional stability and tangible benefits, while sleeping with an alpha.

    4) Or, my personal hypothesis.

    Mainstream society's view of seduction:

    Step 1: Find and talk to girl
    Step 2: ???
    Step 3: (orgasm) Profit!

    Pickup is here because some guys never figured out step 2.

  50. Whoa, so when women are obese they cease to EXIST? Whoa.

    Question: Most of the guys I've fucked have been pretty damn chunky themselves. Do they still exist? (And to the obvious schoolyard reply of "you could only fuck low quality men because you're a low quality woman!"--if I enjoyed it and they enjoyed it, what's your "quality" even good for?)

  51. Certainly I found that unprotected or protected sex with women in the "normal" BMI range was more exciting at every stage than grad-school-feminism-mandated protected sex (the protection, not the sex, mandated sex? "I wish!") with women in the "overweight" or "obese" ranges, but that may just be confirming socialization, but, yeah. I'm actually most interested in seeing your face in your pics because your body looks, plus or minus, about the same as that of every Jewish woman I've been with in grad school, even down to skin tone, but, yes, I've been with a range of women and I find thin is better personally, even if that's just my socialization to male privilege rewarding me with better brain jollies. On the other hand, this also means that there are fat women out there I haven't been an intolerable doofus to and I've had sustainable relationships with them. Don't tell my PUA lair or they'll revoke my membership card.

  52. They don't cease to exist, their sexual market value falls, and men tend to fight (metaphorically) over the remaining skinny women.

    As for the men, women tend to seek things in men besides looks (perceived social status, mainly), whereas males fairly uniformly prefer looks in women (not to mention that most hot women are high status anyways). This is why obesity, while afflicting people of both genders, skews gender ratios.

    Not having seen you, I'm not going to judge your quality, that's for you to know.

  53. You know, all this talk about PUA's depresses the living daylights out of me. It makes me hate the fact that I was born a gender that is objectified as much as it is. It makes me distrust the opinion of those who justify its merits without contemplating its destructive nature or the fabricated element of it.

  54. The top PUAs, Mystery, Zan, David D, whatever, for the most part are brilliant men. In the future, cultural anthropologists will herald them as the men who revolutionized gender relations and conventional thinking regarding dating and sex.

    That said, they are also businessmen and profiteers, so don't treat them like the messiah.

  55. Anon - Is the Kool-Aid that strong? 98% of society doesn't know or care about Mr. Silly Hat, we've just gone around dating people we liked.